"No Way Out" Discussion *SPOILERS*

I don't know how old your daughter is, but I grew up with Harry and was basically the same age as him throughout the series. The philosopher's stone came out when I was 8 in 1997. I most likely would have been okay with Harry dying when I was younger but that's just a matter of opinions and preferences. I didn't want Jo to randomly kill him off, but I was convinced going into Deathly Hallows that Harry's scar was the last Horcrux, and therefore had to die in order to defeat Voldy. I like the ending now, I just wasn't expecting Harry to sort of half die and come back.
The death of a main character always just has such an impact on me and even though I usually cry my eyes out over it, I love it.
Examples of some of my favorite main character deaths:
Titanic
V For Vendetta
Pan's Labyrinth
Braveheart
Gladiator

The death's in these movies were all necesarry to impact the viewer and give meaning to the films.
I am so off topic.

Indeed the writers have been very frustrating over the years concerning character drama (Or lack there of) and the way it is distributed. No disagreement there. I don't watch E.R so I can't really compare the two. I'm squeamish.

I swear you're out to get Grissom.
I think Grissom's leadership skills progressed and improved throughout the series with the exception of taking a huge nose dive at the end. Leadership skills aside, I think Grissom underwent the most drastic change of all. You kind of caught me off guard implying that Grissom has been stuck in static for 9 years. I don't even know where to start.
So, I won't. I don't think Grissom's developement really needs to be defended.

I agree that Nick, Catherine, and Greg all went through wonderful developement over the years but I also think Grissom, Sara and Warrick underwent many changes as well. Out of all of them I think Nick was the one who developed the least. He has always been empathetic, caring and he still is. I think the past 7 episodes were the only ones where Nick underwent any major changes (That being from student to teacher.)

Well, I'm off to see the Watchmen, and then I have to study because I have midterms in the morning. Retaliate if you wish and feel free to imagine a super witty, empowering, awesome comeback from me that changes your opinion on Grissom and causes you to love him as much as I do.

 

Actually, I liked Grissom an awful lot. He was quirky, funny and I think his humanity showed more with victims than with his teams. He related very well to crime victims. I liked the one scene in Ch-Ch-Changes when he talked with this transgendered woman about the pearl. His ability to help crime victims put their experiences into context, often science context was a amazing. He made not have been a great leader of his team, but he was a great character. In fact, he'd make a great therapist, if he wasn't so obsessed with science and bugs. But he was a loner. It was just who he was.

I think he did well in Grave Danger with Nick when he was so traumatized. I liked him with pedophile in Harvest, the look of rage was scarey. I liked his scenes with Brass. And his eulogy in For Warrick was touching.

I don't dislike character. I thought he was pretty cool. I didn't like his leadership is what I'm saying.

See this is where I disagree with you. Nick made a lot impulsive decisions in the early seasons. Sleeping with the hooker, accidentally revealing critical information to an old college friend and sometimes was too quick to judge.

After he was buried alive, he changed and matured a lot. A LOT. It was hard to see that at times because character development was limited to only three of the characters while the rest were shadows. I think the actor did well with the limited scenes he had.

In season six, Nick was the leader in Gum Drops and showed so much determination. Listening to his instincts which eventually saved a little girl's life. In Redrum, he lead three of the characters on coup to find out what Catherine was up to. In Dead Doll, he saved Sara's life. Going back a few seasons, he told Grissom, "I'm not like you." That was a real turning point because up until then he was trying so hard to prove himself to his boss.

And remember what Grissom said in One To Go (another Grissom moment I'll treasure) "You were my best student Nick." A line Bily Petersen himself put in-so I guess that means Billy thinks Nick grew as a character also.

Sorry to go off topic Destiny.

 

I'm with you on most of your theories Live4GrissNsara with the exeption of "the nosedive at the end' I thought that was the perfect ending to a perfect 9 years. Grissom's leadership was above reproach, the whole team loved and admired him and his tactics. And he always was there for all of them. I wished I had a boss like him, There doesn't seem to be a strong leader now, they all seem to be floundering like a fish out of water. They don't seem to know who to report too, or ask questions too, is it Langston or is it Catherine? I'm sure they're all still grieving and devastated by losing their boss, and two key CSI buddies. Hopefully down the line we'll see new fresh leadership like Grissom, well I take that back, there is no one like him. It's just a different CSI now, but we've still got some of the old team acting out in the best way they know how too. I did notice a bunch of new writers in the credits, and I have no idea who they are. Are they new, or have they been promoted from a lower lineup, meaning were they assistants of the main original writers, or are they new people?

 

As a Nick fan, of course I'm going to say Nick grew the most.:guffaw: But I agree with you on Greg, I was very impressed with him with the dad of the fallen boy. I think his being a CSI Level III gives him a comfort level to go even further to help crime victims. He always did such as Fannysmackin', but he does have more of an authority about him which is nice to see.

Agree with you 100 per cent there!:thumbsup:

 

I'll try not to get too off-topic on this. Personally, I found the development of Greg and Grissom the most apparent, and, with the evidence pointed out by myfuturecsi, I can definitely see how Nick has developed. Then again, I don't think I really paid as much attention to earlier seasons, and Greg was the character that I've paid the most attention to. Personally, I always thought that Warrick was the most neglected by the series, though I've heard in various places that that had more to do with the actor's personal problems than writing. Who knows...

Anyway, as to the team and whether they're too perfect, I personally love them the way that they are. I'd offer a few explanations for the current, relatively placid dynamic, and why I think the writers and/or other PTB are not messing up with conflict:

-First of all, we had a lot more character drama earlier in the season. I think the rest of the season has focused on balancing that out.

-Second, I think that it has a lot to do with how conflict would evolve with particular characters. Personally, I think that Greg is the least likely to be a cause of conflict. Catherine and Nick, at this point, fall under the same category for me because they're still establishing themselves in leadership roles and trying to set positive examples and watch out for the team. I think the two of them would avoid any conflict at all costs at this point in time. An example, IMO, would be Nick immediately telling Greg and Riley to cut out their kind of silly chatter about BDSM in Leave Out All the Rest, and, in a lighter way, Cath telling Greg and Riley to cut out joking around at the end of the drill scene in No Way Out. I could definitely imagine a Nick or Cath of earlier seasons joking back, but, this time, they're more concerned with professionalism because of the increase in leadership for them.

-The character that I see as more of a maverick (no McCain/Palin references :shifty, in the way that Warrick was at the beginning of the series, is Riley. However, they can't do very much with having Riley cause conflict, IMO, because fans just haven't warmed enough to her. If they created too much conflict between her and an established fan favorite, or even Ray, who definitely seems to have gotten stronger reception (and just been more developed than Riley), she could end up being disliked even more by many fans, or written off as a MarySue type of character. I've seen a lot of people complaining about her "being shoved in their faces." Personally (as is probably apparent from my icon), I really like her character and don't feel at all that she's been shoved in my face, but I can understand why TPTB would want to avoid much drama surrounding her until people feel differently about her. So, I'd say there will be more conflict once fans have gotten more used to Riley.

-I honestly think that the events of the S8 and S9 have had a big impact. I think Catherine and Nick (and maybe even Greg) could very well contribute to conflict, but I get the feeling that they're still grieving for Warrick, having been the closest to him. The last thing that they want to see is another CSI burn out or get into a dangerous situation. Fostering team friendship is part of the way that they're trying to prevent this. That said, I feel like there still is some degree of team drama/maybe even conflict implied, it's just that it's really below the surface. They're all still struggling with the shadow of Grissom and Warrick's losses. While Cath has become a much better leader, I also think that part of the reason for her change in personality on the show (as in not just natural instincts) is that she's more restrained and protective in the wake of the death of a very close friend who (and I really don't mean to get into a shipper debate) she probably had strong feelings for at one point, based on the fantasy comment in S6, and in the wake of the departure of her best friend. Nick, at the same time, lost a best friend and a paternal figure/mentor. Greg didn't seem as close to Grissom or Warrick, but he's also still trying to cope with his higher place in the pecking order. He went from being the lowest man on the totem pole to being, in a way, the in-between guy between the two experienced CSIs and the newcomers (especially Riley).

Basically, I think that, while there may not be overt conflict, it's still because past conflicts have forced the characters to change, in their general behavior as well as in their attitudes toward team dynamics. Greg, Cath and Nick are probably rather emotionally exhausted by the events of the last 1-1.5 years, and the last thing they need is more conflict, especially when they're the people in positions of most power within the team and are expected to set the example and help resolve team drama should it occur.

That said, I suppose we still have Hodges for conflict. It'll be a cold day in hell when that man doesn't find a way to stick his foot in his mouth. So far, he's proven himself to be one of the only people capable of creating conflict with Ray, who seems like a very calm and not at all volatile person.

Also, I can imagine conflict at some point between Ray and the rest of the team if it's caused by professional conflicts. Because he still seems to look at things from a more personal angle (like with the son in 'Graveyard Shift'), I can definitely see a major disagreement coming up between him and at least one of his fellow CSIs. Still, they probably need to establish or develop his character further before doing that.

Overall, I think of this sense of calm on the team as somewhat of a quiet after the storm. All the conflict has boiled down, and everyone's still pushing through the pain by working through it. No one wants to rock the boat, and I don't think anyone (especially any of the three established CSIs) even has the emotional energy to do so.

EDIT: Wow. I didn't realize how long it took me to write this. By the time I was done, three posts had materialized before it :lol:

Anyway, I agree 100% with what myfuturecsi and Dizzney just said. The contrast between Greg's scene with Tara Matthews' husband and general reaction to the events in 'Spark of Life' and his scenes with the father and general poise in this episode, to me, really embodied how far he's come. Then again, as a Greg fan, I think I was bound to look for that stuff.

Wow. I feel like you've been watching a totally different show. Then again, I guess that shows how complex and well-done of a show CSI is, if different viewers can get such totally different perspectives out of it. It's kind of like how, in great novels, every reader notices different details that were carefully put in, because there are so many different themes and ideas at work, and, as a result, different readers end up with totally different interpretations. Anyway, I definitely saw something totally different. Maybe I'll have to rewatch to figure out how exactly the team is floundering.

I think they're all dealing with the grief, but I think only one person has really had it affect his work -- Nick in 'Turn, Turn, Turn.' That said, his trouble, IMO, was a long time coming. He's been put through the ringer a lot over the course of the series. Personally, I think Warrick's death, which occured during Grissom's tenure, was the biggest cause, and that the trouble with Haley Jones was (the English major in me is cringing at the cliché) the straw that broke the camel's back. I don't think the supervisor had anything to do with it. The only thing that would have changed had Grissom still been in charge is that Nick might been in a slightly better place, emotionally and psychologically, had he not lost yet another imporant person in his life. Also, the loss in manpower also probably didn't help. Technically, they have the same number of people, but trading a supervisor for a rookie probably made a big difference in the amount of work required for everyone, especially Nick and Catherine, who had to take on greater leadership

Overall, I'd say Catherine has done a phenomenal job so far and I really, really doubt that Grissom could've handled any of the issues so far better than Catherine has. It was Ray that came to Nick's aid, and I can't imagine Grissom doing a better job. It's always been Catherine who's helped the CSIs through emotionally trying issues. Now, Ray, who seems a lot better with people is there to help as well.

So, overall, I don't see at all how not having Grissom has caused any problems, aside from the fact that he probably left some of the CSIs feeling at least a little abandoned. But Catherine's been doing an awesome job so far.

 

I wasn't implying that he hasn't grown or matured over the years because he clearly has. I just don't think he has developed as much as Grissom, Catherine and Greg. Either way, for me, all of the characters have developed so much since the very beginning. And how much I love each character is not dependent on how much they've grown in that time.

I honestly don't know the three you are refering to as stealing all the limelight while the rest linger in the shadows.
Well, Grissom is a given. No denial there.
But as for the other two, I'm not so sure who you are talking about. I'm going to guess Catherine as one of them which makes sense because she is second billing. And probably Sara as the other.
I also don't think Nick was limited or stuck in the shadows. I think he had more character based episodes then Warrick. But I will tell you who is shoved in the shadows, Wendy and Mandy.

I completely agree with you there. She's one of those characters that will get on people's nerves if the writers arn't careful. If she caused friction with Nick or Greg, I'm sure she would be instantly attacked and hated. If Sara had been brought in this late in the series she probably would have gotten the cold shoulder as well.

I love Hodges. And even though he is the one constantly ruffling everyone's feathers, I really enjoy his more human moments. I loved the scene in Empty Eyes when he asked Sara if she'd ever done the right thing and still felt guilty about it. I love seeing him vulnerable. I also really loved his final goodbye scene with Grissom.

Catherine is a strong leader and Nick is as well. I think their very "text book" when it comes to supervising and conscious of the team emotions . I think the one thing they lack though is the ability to inspire others when it comes to science. Although, I wouldn't mind seeing Nick pick up Grissom's hobby of science experiments. Because I really miss them.
I also don't think the new team is floundering. My issue is them being to perfect. Which probably works for the average viewer, and is probably TBTBs best move at the moment, it just does nothing for me personally.

 

Lets all keep to the discussion of the episode please.

This argument of who is more mature or Grissom vs anyone else is getting out of hand and way off topic. I am not seeing how any of that has anything to do with this episode.

Want to discuss a character/actor they have threads to discuss them (though not rah yay all the time as long as your thoughts have a constructive basis there should be no problem), you dislike a character there is a thread for that.

Thank you.

 

One more Destiny and I'll shut up.

100 per cent agreed. I love Mandy and want more and more of her. Her scenes with Nick are priceless, they have chemistry.

Thanks Destiny,

Now on the topic of the show, I missed it. Were those two kids brothers or cousins?

 

They were cousins, but the way they acted together they seemed closer almost like brothers.

 

^I was under the impression that Reggie's mom took care of both on a regular basis, at least before Reggie went off to school.

 

I felt kind of sorry for them in spite of the situation. I know it sounds silly, but they seemed like they got in way over their heads.