"Mascara" 200th Ep Discussion *SPOILERS*

[GregNickRyanFan]

All I can say is I kind of liked the episode, it was different it let us see a little bit more of Ray in a light other then Mr Nice Guy, alot complained because they didn't know much about Ray or how he reacts, they show an emotionally charged side of him and people complain *waves hand in the air* thats neither here nor there. Granted I wouldn't have minded more of the orginial cast being in there, we don't know for sure why they weren't, we can only guess and drive oneself crazy doing so.

I'm not complaining about emotional Ray. I actually didn't mind that part. I just wish the others had been allowed to be more involved.

As to conflict of interest.... This isn't the first case on THIS CSI that has had that as well (could name a couple as I am sure you all could) right down to Grissom. So why should it be any different with Ray? Because it was the 200th ep? meh imo its just an ep number. I mean think about it, the 100th ep was about "The team investigating the death of a transgender" So that leaves storyline out as the cause....yeah. Basically the complaint is all about the orginials getting less screen time based on the episodes number.

I don't think the conflict of interest is only a problem because of the 200th. I think it's a problem period. In all honesty, the only eps with conflicts of interest that I remember on this show is For Warrick (technically none of them should have been allowed to work the case) and Cath clearing Nick after Kristy's death. Oh and Grissom never should have been allowed to question Natalie about Sara's whereabouts. I cannot recall any others.

I actually didn't mind "Ch-Ch-Changes". Honestly, I didn't even know that it was a milestone episode. :lol: I mean, I don't recall seeing commercial after commercial or interview after interview advertising that it was the 100th ep. :lol: But looking back at screencaps from that episode I can say that the team interaction was much better in Ch-Ch-Changes and it didn't focus solely on one character and the scenes between characters were more evened out. That's what they should have done for Mascara.

So they wanted to make it Ray-centric, fine, but at least they could have done it in a way that there was more team interaction (and again I mention Thursday night's episode of Bones which was a Cam-centric episode and she is the newest person on the team excluding Dr. Sweets and the various rotating interns- there was plenty of screentime for each character including a recurring character- why couldn't this CSI ep have been like that?).

If they hadn't made such a big deal about the 200th ep, no one would have probably even know what number it was. But they made a big deal about it and then didn't allow those who helped it get there to have much to do in the ep. I can't help but find that odd.

I mean come on there wasn't one positive thing about this episode? One liked thing about this episode? I am not just talking characters, I am talking forensics, storyline, camera work, lighting, etc.

The forensics was a bit lacking in this ep. As mentioned before, the only evidence (other than the pics Sylvia had) was a piece of material from the killer's mask. :lol: Oh and the survelliance tape. :lol: As for camera work, lighting, etc, I rarely even notice those things in the first place unless it's dizzy camera stuff (which is annoying) and flashy lighting (strobe lights- also annoying) or if the lighting is so poor that you can't see whats going on (like in that last Predator vs Aliens movie). I didn't notice the odd filters on the camera that people were talking about either, but then again I was listening to the ep more than I was looking at it cause all of that wrestling stuff just isn't that interesting to me to be honest.

As for the storyline, well it started off okay with the chase scene (which I did like by the way) but just sort of fizzled out at some point. I did like the flashback scenes with Ray and Sylvia. The scene at the end with the killer saying that god of chaos or whatever did it made me chuckle. Loved Brass getting more screentime, only wish the other originals had as well. Loved Nicky speaking Spanish, only wish we'd gotten subtitles. It's a bit frustrating when you're watching something where someone is speaking a language that you do not know and you have no clue what they are saying. :lol:


The positives about this episode (non character related):

*Flashback scenes - I appreciated that they didn't do that flashy stuff they do for flashbacks of the crime... this was just a nice, normal transition.

*The opening chase scene was nicely done.

*The wrestler's fight scene with the killer was nicely choreographed.

All other positives are about the characters, so...

By the way, sorry for all the editing on this post. I keep having a hard time focusing because I keep having sneezing attacks. :lol: Darn allergies.

 

[Destiny]

Originally Posted by RocketScientist: The visuals were pretty (look something positive) but not engaging (sorry cannot help it).

By the way, what is this fear of the negative?

To aim to censor the negative, just because it *may* offend someone, then truely nothing ever can improve. Look at Bush for crying out loud.

If this was aimed at me in anyway, I have no fear of the negative, and no one is censoring anyone from have an opinion (negative or positive), my post was to challenge people who were positive to find a negative and vice versa, or both. Not just in the characters but in the overall aspect of the episode as I explained.

I personally don't give a rats behind if anyones opinion differs from mine, if we all had the same one then it would be a boring world now wouldn't it. course I am not sure where in at least my post anyone could claim censoring or fear/offended by negative comments.... Oh well worth a shot I guess, too bad though.

No, I don't think the conflict of interest is only a problem because of the 200th. I think it's a problem period. In all honesty, the only eps with conflicts of interest that I remember on this show is For Warrick (technically none of them should have been allowed to work the case) and Cath clearing Nick after Kristy's death. I cannot recall any others.

How about cath clearing Eddie of rape charges?, Grissom working sara's case? there are so many. They have all done it at one point or another, and if they hadn't they will probably. BTW thank you for the positives sometimes its not the big things in a show that is the positive its the little or overlooked things that can be either P or N or both.

As to making a big deal out of it, you mean to tell me no one has figured out that if its built up really big like a mountain that there has to be a downfall on the other side... Everyone from the show, to the fans were making this ep a big deal, as I said to me it was a number. Course to me the best eps are the ones in which they use your emotions to make you laugh, cry, get mad and make you go hmm, those to me are mile stones because they are so few and far between.

 

[GregNickRyanFan]

How about cath clearing Eddie of rape charges?

Don't remember Eddie being accused of rape. :lol: But yeah, that's a definite conflict of interest, however Vegas doesn't do it as often as Miami does. They are usually much better about telling people "you can't work this case you're too emotionally involved".

Grissom working sara's case?

Yeah, I remembered that at last minute and edited my post to add it. :lol: You are referring to the Natalie thing, right? :lol: I guess for Miami they do it several times in a row and Vegas' are usually more spread out, so it's hard to remember it all. :lol:

Everyone from the show, to the fans were making this ep a big deal, as I said to me it was a number.

But the fans wouldn't have known the episode number if they hadn't advertised it online, in newspapers/magazines and in tv ads. Well, there might be some fans who keep up with all of that stuff, but not me. I couldn't tell you what number an episode was in a season (without looking on a DVD) let alone how many eps the show has had in all. :lol: It seems odd to me though that with more than 22 eps per season and this is the 9th season that they are just now reaching 200 eps. If that's case, how many more seasons is it gonna take them to get to 500? :lol:

I just think the writers could have written the other characters helping Ray out a little more than what they did. And why the heck did they have Greg doing Archie's job? :lol:

Even though "Turn Turn Turn" was a Nick-centric episode, the writers still did an excellent job of balancing out screentime with other characters which is why this ep was so disappointing in that regard. We've seen how well they can do it with a character centric episode... yet, they didn't do as well with team interaction in this one.

Oh, I forgot... there was something else that made me smile in the episode and it's really tiny, but... the message that Ray had written in the signed copy of his book that he gave Sylvia. Something like "someday I'll be asking for your autograph" (sentimental for me because one of my teachers wrote that exact same thing in my yearbook one time- of course I got peeved at a now ex and destroyed every one of my yearbooks in anger [cause it reminded me of said ex and I was doing a cleansing ritual type of thing lol], so I sadly do not have that anymore.

 

[symbeline]

While it seems that a lot of people are bothered because this was the 200th episode, it was highly publicized and so on, that's not my case at all. I simply found it the worst episode ever, regardless of the number or the importance in the history of the show.

I won't explain why it was so terrible in my opinion because it's been done already by so many others, and it's difficult to express your feelings in a foreign language when you want to say so much, but I'll try to define what my main problem with 'Mascara' is.

There've been bad episodes before, that's obvious. And I've felt really disappointed with this show since the begining of season 6 more times than I can count. But I've still continued watching it in hopes of forgetting that less than stellar episodes and until this one, I think that I've suceeded. I've forgotten a lot of episodes that I didn't like since 'Grave Danger' and now I don't *feel* anything special about them. I'm sure that I could watch them again, be bored or frustrated again, and forget again, because each of this episodes had something that grabbed my attention, whether it was a character, some interaction, some piece of dialogue and specially something that had to do with the team and their teamwork.

But 'Mascara' didn't have any of this redempting moments. That's the first time that I've *hated* an episode and I can't concentrate in finding anything positive at all because each scene added more and more fuel to my mood, and at the end I didn't know what to think, other than "that's not CSI".
And I don't mean "that's not how CSI looks", or "that's not my usual CSI editing/filming". I mean "that's not the characters and the scripts that this show used to have".

I don't know if I've managed to explain myself but to sum it up: if this was the first time that I watched the show, you can bet that it would also be the last.

 

[xeri]

Hehe ok can't keep quiet

Of course every opinion is different and I don't want to badmouth the ep for those who liked it - I just don't agree with the "don't like change reason" that where mentioned for not liking the ep.

I'm easily pleased with my TV shows and I NEVER befor had the urge to turn of CSI !! ^^

Like "symbeline" said there have been other eps before that weren't great but they definitely could have handeld that better.

I love when they go scuril, witty or experimental, but this just felt static without tension/life between the scenes ,made without thought and somehow dumb

And I wasn't that miffed ,that Ray had the leading role but how they handled it . Like "GregNickRyanFan" said about the Nick epi , or I just watched the 7x20 Lab rats ep again and others : they always balanced great team interactions/working toghether, while favoriting a single chracter - why not this time
And nothing against emotional Ray and background ,but if they want as to believe this is how a case would be worked ,then no wonder there is the no involvement rule : where was the "real" forensics ,the puzzle ???
We saw that the Ray-chracter was still learning (like powdering fingerprints from Nick) and that he really worked with enthusiasm in the sciensce ( loved his experiment that gained him Hodges respect) - why shoot all these character traits down ,let him all go emotional/irrational and the team plays along.:shifty:

And the light/music didn't really do it for me ,but maybe I'm biased because it dragged so much. In my opinion other eps where in that part more interesting for ex (sorry can't remember ep names) the ep where a family father killes over the years several girls and in the end he gave them no reason why - loved the dark ep mixed with the music .
Or 7x21 (guy shot with crossbow, hit with crowbar, had anaphylactic shock and poisened - the chair killed him *g* ) they played with black-white,the light,music and overall the mood in the different povs ...

 

[byline]

Well, for some of us, the benefit of change is showing in the result. It's just that we happen to enjoy the result. I can tell you that after the episode was over, my husband turned to me and said, "This is the best 'CSI' season in years." So, in his opinion, these episodes have been a breath of fresh air, since "CSI" seemed in danger of becoming a caricature of itself. Instead, they've shaken up the formula and given us something new. I agree with his assessment, and that's part of why I enjoyed Thursday night's episode. I can see why others wouldn't like it, but all that indicates is a difference of opinion, with some of us liking the direction they're taking with the series now.

All that this suggests is that your husband is not necessarily that taken with CSI. Fine. Neither is my husband!!

Actually, it suggests nothing of the kind. Hubby and I have been fans of "CSI" from the get-go. We're both bigtime "Manhunter" fans, and so when we found out that William Petersen was going to star in a pretty neat-sounding show about forensics, we eagerly tuned in to the very first episode, and have been watching ever since. And we watch the reruns on Spike, too.

So it's a bit disingenuous to make that assumption, when it's clearly not true for either of us. We have loved "CSI" from the beginning. We also had begun to feel, in more recent years, that the show was becoming a caricature of itself. It was still good, but the formula needed shaking up. That's what we're getting now, and so for us, we get a lot of satisfaction out of watching the series now. But I kind of doubt that we're the average "CSI" viewer, so maybe that explains our taste in episodes.

 

[Adzix]

i liked the episode. i don't know why so many people didn't, tbh. i think it's unfair to criticize it so much, as if you've watched an hour of Horatio practice taking his sunglasses off in front of a mirror.

i loved the style, it was different, refreshing and intense. not every single episode needs to have a team bonding moment, not every one has to have a deep undercovered meaning. sometimes the purpose of the ep might be showing something different and playing with visuals and camera. i don't understand why an 'eye-candy' episode without its normal contents is something horrible.

i think that since CSI became quite schematic over the years it made the audience expect certain qualities, and when they get broken in such way they did in Mascara, some people freak out. CSI has always been treading new waters, finding unexplored ways of filming (that frequently others later copy), and i enjoyed the newness of Mascara.

and i liked Langston a lot actually, his reaction in the end showed me that maybe he is more interesting than i previously thought.

i do realize it lacked some essential parts and it wasn't a perfect ep but, in the end, it wasn't horrible. it was ok.

 

[Nightrider]

OK, I'll be an adult and admit that the "fans don't like change" or "don't like to think" comments were a bit harsh, but it seemed like everyone was complaining because it wasn't a business-as-usual episode. As for "thinking," I thought the episode focused more on the character rather than the case, which some may not like. Yes, I know it's a crime drama, but they have mixed it up before. The dialogue was more natural and their was more effort put into the shots, so I looked at it as a mini-movie rather than an episode.
And yes, the rest of the cast should have been featured more in the 200th episode, but I view it as just a number. It's not the end of the series. And the last thing I need is another Adventures-of-Buckaroo-Banzai ending where they all walk away into the sunset.
And as for the ethnicity, yes I agree, the CSI writers, as usual, missed the point of Santeria (trying to make it look just like voodoo), but I expect nothing less of them. I doubt they looked into the religion more than a Wikipedia entry. When it comes to other cultures, that's about all they every do.
So to those I have offended, my apologies.

 

[byline]

Adzix, you've come pretty close to capturing my thoughts about the episode. Thanks!

 

[GregNickRyanFan]

Santeria, isn't that what Miami had in its "Curse Of The Coffin" episode? or was that something else? I think the word sounded like that, but I can't recall clearly. :lol:

Was it just me or did Nick and Brass (especially Nick) look a bit freaked out by those wrestling matches they were witnessing? :lol:

The only thing I did notice about the filming (yet I didn't remember right away cause I was upset over other things lol... now that my anger has dissapated a bit, I'm starting to remember other things) was when Nick and Brass or Ray and Brass or whoever it was were interviewing those Wrestlers at the arena, the way that was filmed sort of felt like the way those kinds of scenes are filmed in those true life crime shows, kind of almost documentary style. It almost had a backstage type of feeling. I guess the purpose of that was to make the viewer feel like they were there or something. Well, I guess they kind of accomplished that. :lol:

 

[vegaslights]

GregNickRyanFan, Eddie was accused of rape in "Who Are You?". From CSI Files "Catherine violates department protocol when she takes the case of a rape accusation against her ex-husband. Warrick and Sara search for the missing bullet that will either exonerate or indict a cop for murder. Grissom and Nick investigate when a female skeleton is found under a house buried in cement."

 

[symbeline]

OK, I'll be an adult and admit that the "fans don't like change" or "don't like to think" comments were a bit harsh, but it seemed like everyone was complaining because it wasn't a business-as-usual episode. As for "thinking," I thought the episode focused more on the character rather than the case, which some may not like. Yes, I know it's a crime drama, but they have mixed it up before. The dialogue was more natural and their was more effort put into the shots, so I looked at it as a mini-movie rather than an episode.

I don't agree with you

It's unfair to assume that if you liked it because it was different, then those who didn't like it are using the same reason. That's not my case and that's why I'm complaining. I mean, as I said before, I'm a fan of Twin Peaks and The X-Files, so CSI doesn't qualify as risky or bizarre to me, not even this last episode :lol: They can change whatever they want and it still won't be anything else than a mainstream show to me.

I haven't seen a lot of people IN THIS BOARD complain about the technical part of the episode as much as the artistic. I know that it doesn't help that with such an awful and uninspired script, the director choose those annoying drums and those nerve-grating wrestling scenes, but that's not the first time I've been bored with the editing/filming of an episode (somebody mentioned 'Snakes', an episode that bears some resemblance to 'Mascara' and an episode I can't see without fast forwarding most parts of it), but it's been the first time I've hated *everything*.
I'm sure that they'll be some people that didn't like it mainly because of the different visual approach, but if that's not my case and those who liked it are assuming so, I'll try to explain why I don't agree

I think it's a little bit rude to try to *define* people that don't agree with you. When I loved an episode and almost everyone in this board thought it was bad, I didn't come in here an say what I thought about these opinions, because disagreeing with someone doesn't mean their opinion is less valid than yours. It just means that everyone is entitled to have their opinions, no matter how wrong this opinion may seem to you. Who says yours isn't worse? If you are sure about something, just have your say, but don't try to convince others because you'll end up sounding arrogant and rude, even if that's not your intention.

I love to hear everyone's opinion, and I specially like to hear those who don't agree with me (see, I'm just like Ray, I always read the negative reviews about things). I think that it's an enriching experience to think about the positive or negative aspects of something in a different light and to debate with other people, but always keeping in mind that you don't have to convince others, just defend your opinion without attacking or despising anyone's.

So I'm not calling anyone names just because they did like the episode. They liked it and that's all, end of story. I don't even stop to think about it because I'm too busy trying to understand how such an episode happened. :guffaw:

 

[RocketScientist]

I just find it utterly amusing to see the majority of us who disagreed on so many other issues such as GSR and Grissom leaving and such, become a unified front on this one episode.

True indeed. But we are all fans of CSI and liking Grissom does not make me like the others any less. I actually would like to have seen George/Nick become the leading male. The actor has the presence to do it and lets face it is great eye candy. LF is a spectacular actor and a great choice - but he does not seem like a CSI yet. Especially the way he behaved in tthis episode!

It was too soon after losing much loved characters such as Grissom and Warrick and for some here, Sara, so I think timing played a huge factor in the poor reception of this episode.

Actually I disagree. If Grissom, Nick or any of the others had been in Ray's place in this episode it would have received the same panning. The outrage would probably have been worse as there would have still been the mislike of the lack of the others having any screen time on the 200th and the lack of plot etc is apparent.

I also really loved the episodes with Liev in them when Petersen was away. They were great and refreshing. Good plots, engaging - especially the one where he's killed. Superb.

As soon as we saw that Escabn character (a vaguely familar bit-part actor too) been given so much time to be shown screaming franatically next to the wrestling ring with his makeup all smudged right as Brass et al walked into the wrestling place. I immediately thought "oh he is the one. Now I have to wait for them to catch up".

As soon as you saw the wrestlers with the masks you knew that was what the fragment of leather was from. We know how this show works by now. They have to out wit those they have educated now!

I don't think which ever season this episode was in would have changed people's opinon.

Let only hope for much better from now on and that TPTB have not got complacent.....

 

[myfuturecsi]

True indeed. But we are all fans of CSI and liking Grissom does not make me like the others any less. I actually would like to have seen George/Nick become the leading male. The actor has the presence to do it and lets face it is great eye candy. LF is a spectacular actor and a great choice - but he does not seem like a CSI yet. Especially the way he behaved in tthis episode!

I agree with you here, I wish the same thing for George-he's been on the show for nine years and has been mentored (his words) by Billy P himself, who better to have learned from then the man who played Grissom himself.:thumbsup: Unfortunately, TPTB seemed to miss that point entirely when they cast LF, who I like very much, but I don't see why they felt they neeeded to hire a big time actor to take the lead. I also felt this was a slight towards Marg who has been in the show since day one. She earned it. I don't see why she couldn't be the lead of the show with George at the helm.

Take Turn, Turn, Turn for instance, now the argument could be made the ratings were high because Taylor Swift was a guest star, and to some extent I agree, but other Nick-centric episodes have been known to do very well in the ratings along side with Grissom centric ones such as Jackpot and GSR ones such as Dead Doll. George has the ability to attract large audiences and why this seems to be missed by TPTB is puzzling.

Actually I disagree. If Grissom, Nick or any of the others had been in Ray's place in this episode it would have received the same panning. The outrage would probably have been worse as there would have still been the mislike of the lack of the others having any screen time on the 200th and the lack of plot etc is apparent.

I see your point, the show would have been panned no matter who took center stage-the story was just too out there for me to enjoy and not fitting for a 200th episode.

Maybe for me personally, I'm still missing the others. I watched the Pilot the other day and felt very sad.

Rocketscience, I like your avi! Grissom's face is priceless!

And to answer Destiny's question, there was one scene I enjoyed. Wendy and Hodges together, I mentioned it in the ship thread, but I'll mention it here as it does pertain to the episode.

 

[CSI_Kat]

I appauld the discussion going on, not so much subtle zings about peoples opinions. Though I have to say about this discussion its a touch unbalanced (don't get fiesty) I mean come on there wasn't one positive thing about this episode? One liked thing about this episode? I am not just talking characters, I am talking forensics, storyline, camera work, lighting, etc. Come on now this show is about alot of things, the characters are just a part of that to help bring it together. I have heard those who have praised it without a negative, I have heard people curse it without a positive, interesting.

But hey thats just my take on it all, everyone continue please and remember jabs at others opinions are not only unfair to them, they are unfair to you as well.

Nope Destiny - I have to say for the 1st time ever - I don't remember a single thing I liked about this episode. I thought the whole thing was boring and was ready to shut if off 1/2 way through...but I kept hoping it would get better. For me it wasn't who got the most screen time...it was just the whole episode was boring and didn't capture my attention or interest at all.