JUMP THE SHARK!!! In What Way(s) Do You Think CSI: Miami Has Jumped.

Re: JUMP THE SHARK!!! In What Way(s) Do You Think CSI: Miami Has Jumpe

Della said:
So, anyway, as it stands right now for me, unless Horatio Caine is punished by the Law for taking that Law into his own hands, as it does do to any others who decide to take the law into their own hands, then until that happens, the Horatio character is irredeemable to me.

...Sorry...

All in all though, I know that I could list several other episodes, if not all of them, and let you know what I got from that episode in regards to the Horatio Caine character, but in all honesty, that would take time and I'd feel it would be time wasted considering that I no longer feel the same way about the Horatio character. It wouldn't be a labour of love in other words, it would just remind me of how much I dislike the character now.

:)
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Della, I wholeheartedly agree with your last post, and this quoted part, mirrors my exact feelings too. There are indeed many other examples of Horatio's past respect for the law and how he has risen above his own feelings of hatred towards those who have commited dispicable crimes. Just think, for example, of how he dealt with Chaz in Freaks and Tweaks, or Bob Keaton in Big Brother. These were deeply personal cases to him, concerning Raymond, and both these men were ridiculing Raymond, and baiting Horatio. We knew they had really got to him, but he still kept his actions and emotions in check, just about, even though he was seething beneath the surface. What would H do now? Beat them up?

If Horatio was undergoing some kind of breakdown, or has reached an emotional breaking point, and the writers plan on dealing with this, then it could be an interesting approach. However, I don't get the impression that this is their agenda. It seems like some kind of comic book justice, but with no moral message there at all. I once respected Horatio's character a great deal, but I really dislike what he has become recently. I also feel he is beyond redemption, unless the writers surprise me and this is some kind of plan to reveal that H really has lost all sense of perspective.
 
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Re: JUMP THE SHARK!!! In What Way(s) Do You Think CSI: Miami Has Jumpe

Lucy said:
Just think, for example, of how he dealt with Chaz in Freaks and Tweaks, or Bob Keaton in Big Brother. These were deeply personal cases to him, concerning Raymond, and both these men were ridiculing Raymond, and baiting Horatio. We knew they had really got to him, but he still kept his actions and emotions in check
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Wrong on both counts. ;) In Freaks and Tweaks, H hoisted Chaz off of his seat in the interrogation room. He almost beat up Chaz. In Big Brother, H was a little violent towards Keaton - Keaton was sipping a cup of water, and H, with great force, smacked it out of his hand in the interrogation room. :cool:

H had been noticeably violent with some criminals in the earlier seasons. I was shocked to see that H (presumably) beat up Lou Durning in To Kill A Predator, but I supported the action and still do. The same goes for All In. There is a big difference between killing criminals like the Mala Noche and Durning, compared to killing innocent people.
 
Re: JUMP THE SHARK!!! In What Way(s) Do You Think CSI: Miami Has Jumpe

In my opinion, I think context and foreshadowing is an important part towards understanding a character’s actions/expressions that would otherwise be deemed wildly out of character.

For instance, while I was wholly against Horatio and Delko going off to Brazil with the intent to kill Riaz, I could understand why they were doing that, simply because all of the foreshadowing that occurred leading up to Horatio and Riaz’s one-on-one confrontation. Such as the Mala Noche killing Marisol, the deal the other Agency made with Riaz, the killing of Ray, the threats Riaz made against Horatio and those he holds dear and finally the recruiting of Ray jnr. All of that foreshadowing helped me understand the why. I still didn’t agree with what Horatio and Delko were doing but it was understandable.

Then I thought the rest of the season was Horatio pulling away from his team, in the hope to perhaps regain a part of himself that he had lost with his killing Riaz, and when it came to the beginning of this Season I had assumed he had done exactly that.

...And the reason I came to that conclusion was him taking his own son Kyle in to pay for the crimes he had committed. I mean, if Horatio lacked so much confidence in the system that he didn’t think Kyle would get a fair trial or perhaps more importantly a fair sentencing, then why was he taking Kyle in?

I also think there is a world of difference between knocking someone’s drink out of their hand, shoving someone up against a wall or out of their chair, or pulling a suspects hair, to blatantly executing someone and (presumably) beating the crap out of a suspect.

I understand what Lucy is saying and I agree with her. I also think the Horatio of today would have beaten the crap out of Chaz and taken great joy in doing that. Or then again, is Horatio so insidious now that he will only do something like that when there are no witnesses to it? And if that is the case, isn’t that the mentality of a criminal where the most upper thing on their mind is that there are no witnesses to their crime? Now don’t get me wrong, I think the best Law Enforcement Officers are those who can get into the mind of a criminal, but getting into their mind is one thing, behaving and acting out as a criminal would do is another thing entirely.

I do agree that there is a difference between killing an innocent and killing a criminal, though probably not for the same reasons, because, in my opinion, to justify murder because the one murdered is a criminal is, in my opinion, like agreeing with the Mafia because they only murder their own and those who they believe has committed a crime against them, or the Kray twins because they only murdered fellow underground operatives and so on, or in terms of the program agreeing with the Mala Noche when they turned up to murder Horatio because of his killing Riaz.

I mean, if a serial killer was to murder a criminal in amongst the innocents he has targeted, then should he be exonerated of one murder? And if so, then say there was a serial killer who only targeted criminals, should be completely exonerated because his targets were all criminals?

In my opinion, murder is murder and while there is a multitude of reasons as to why someone murders, such as a crime of passion, personal vengeance, or a serial killer and so on, they should still be brought to trial to pay for that crime. Whether they are someone who has murdered an innocent or someone who has murdered a criminal is neither here nor there. Murder cannot be excused or justified simply because they have murdered a criminal.

...which is why until the Horatio character is brought to justice to pay for the crimes he has committed, then the character will always be a Cop who took the law into his own hands to me... a dirty cop I suppose. *shrug*

:)

...My apologies for butting in...
 
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Re: JUMP THE SHARK!!! In What Way(s) Do You Think CSI: Miami Has Jumpe

dogbert14 said:
Wrong on both counts. ;) In Freaks and Tweaks, H hoisted Chaz off of his seat in the interrogation room. He almost beat up Chaz. In Big Brother, H was a little violent towards Keaton - Keaton was sipping a cup of water, and H, with great force, smacked it out of his hand in the interrogation room. :cool:
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Not so re being wrong. You have missed my point. ;) This is why I posted:

We knew they had really got to him, but he still kept his actions and emotions in check, just about, even though he was seething beneath the surface. What would H do now? Beat them up?
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In both cases, Horatio was close to losing it completely, but ultimately, he didn't. Admittedly, Frank was there to hold him back in Freaks and Tweaks. Horatio showed admirable restraint in these scenes, whilst almost going too far. Would he do so now, if no-one was there? That was my point. Hitting a cup out of someone's hand in a moment of brief rage, is quite different from beating up on someone or shooting them in cold blood.

I chose these scenes because they highlight a subtle believability. The fact that H could have gone further, but didn't, was a testament to his character. Both were very human responses in those circumstances.
 
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Re: JUMP THE SHARK!!! In What Way(s) Do You Think CSI: Miami Has Jumpe

Della said:
I do agree that there is a difference between killing an innocent and killing a criminal, though probably not for the same reasons, because, in my opinion, to justify murder because the one murdered is a criminal is, in my opinion, like agreeing with the Mafia because they only murder their own and those who they believe has committed a crime against them, or the Kray twins because they only murdered fellow underground operatives and so on, or in terms of the program agreeing with the Mala Noche when they turned up to murder Horatio because of his killing Riaz.

I mean, if a serial killer was to murder a criminal in amongst the innocents he has targeted, then should he be exonerated of one murder? And if so, then say there was a serial killer who only targeted criminals, should be completely exonerated because his targets were all criminals?

In my opinion, murder is murder and while there is a multitude of reasons as to why someone murders, such as a crime of passion, personal vengeance, or a serial killer and so on, they should still be brought to trial to pay for that crime. Whether they are someone who has murdered an innocent or someone who has murdered a criminal is neither here nor there. Murder cannot be excused or justified simply because they have murdered a criminal.
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I think, Della, this is why we do not get along at all. We both have very different senses of justice. To me, murder is murder, but how wrong the action is depends on its circumstances. If a gang member killed someone I knew, I would go after him, possibly killing him in the process. And if you want to know, I would execute a gang member I felled, if the gang he is in is murderous. Criminals ARE technically human, but that doesn't excuse them for killing somebody, and sometimes the legal justice system isn't enough.
 
Re: JUMP THE SHARK!!! In What Way(s) Do You Think CSI: Miami Has Jumpe

Dogbert14, you're on your last string and using bold isn't exactly going to get you any brownie points.
 
Re: JUMP THE SHARK!!! In What Way(s) Do You Think CSI: Miami Has Jumpe

Um, well I think it could be said that you don’t get along with me, dogbert. I don’t mind dissenting opinions to mine, it can at times make for a great debate.

Still, anyway, criminals are human beings, dogbert, there’s really no ‘technically’ about it. All in all, no matter what name you might want to call or give the criminal, or that their behaviour might bring into question what species they are, but, all in all, they are human beings. You just can’t get away from that one, I’m afraid.

Also, dogbert, in my opinion, if a Law Enforcement Officer (LEO) truly believes that ‘sometimes the legal system isn’t enough’ and starts to administer his own forms of punishment because of that, then the last thing the LEO should be working for is any Law Enforcement Agency, because, as said before, some eons ago now, Horatio Caine is a fully paid, fully trained, ‘representative’ of the law, he is not the law himself.

As with any every day Joe, Horatio obviously has the right to choose, but to choose to commit a crime and expect to get away with it just because you represent the Law is in contradiction to everything that an LEO has sworn to uphold. I mean, when it all comes down to it any Law abiding citizen represents the Law, but an LEO has chosen to enforce that Law on our behalf on those who have chosen to break that Law. Criminy, does that sound confusing?

Um, let’s take your scenario for instance, dogbert. So, you make the choice to kill the criminal who killed a member of your family. Okay, so what do you think should happen to you? Do you think you should pay for the crime of committing murder or do you think you were wholly justified in killing the one who killed a member of your family? Let’s swing it around to the other family and ask, “Do you therefore think that someone else from that other family is therefore wholly justified in murdering you for killing a member of their family?”

...And yet let’s say that another member of that other family actually decides that the only way to ensure no-one else in his /her family are going to be killed, is to visit your home and murder your entire family in one foul swoop. Do you think that justice has been served, despite the fact that the only one to have broken the Law in your family is you? In other words, would you be prepared to risk the annihilation of your entire family through something you did?

In my opinion, when taking your scenario into consideration, Dogbert, if the law had been enforced on the criminal who initially murdered a member of your family, it would have ensured that you and the rest of your family are safe from any further murders that could have taken place – and because in this final scenario you are alive and well, that Law also saved you from you.

Yes, sometimes the forensics may fail you, and some people who act on behalf of the Law may fail you too, (as, in terms of CSI Miami, Horatio failed any young girl the Paedophile would have come into contact with because the evidence he collected was not enough to convict), but, all in all, the Law itself never fails you.

All in all, ignoring the comic book situation, I had no problem whatsoever with Horatio taking out the three people who had machine guns aimed at him, or the two on the motorcycles or the one in the car. In my opinion, he was justified in killing them, because his life was being threatened by them. However, the guy with the machete is a whole different ballgame.

The worst he’d done was bad-mouth Horatio, and besides, Horatio had already taken care of him. He was injured, disarmed and was lying face down on the ground. So, I’m sorry, but as far as I’m concerned Horatio’s execution of that Gang Member had had nothing to do with ‘Miami Justice’ at allllll. And neither did his (presumably) beating up of the Paedophile.

Besides why didn’t Horatio kill the guy with the machete just after he’d taken out the three with the machine guns? He had plenty of opportunity to. Why did he wait until the man was disarmed, injured and lying face down in the dirt?

Anyway, I think I’m just repeating myself now. And besides this thread is now wildly off topic.



:)
 
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Re: JUMP THE SHARK!!! In What Way(s) Do You Think CSI: Miami Has Jumpe

Well, the Horatio debacle is perhaps one way the show has 'jumped the shark' but I'd like to suggest perhaps taking the debate over to the Horatio Thread or even creating another whole thread for it because it is an interesting topic. :) Not saying we can't talk about the topic here, because going a bit off-kilter never hurt anyone and like I said, it's one of the reasons some believe the show is jumping the shark. But Let's just be sure this thread doesn't turn into Horatio-central. ;)
 
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Re: JUMP THE SHARK!!! In What Way(s) Do You Think CSI: Miami Has Jumpe

I think the show jumped the shark with the whole Marisol storyline.

- As many have said, it was completely unbelievable that she had cancer. Not once did we see her sick and she was supposedly sick enough to need marijuana to fight the pain. She was the most beautiful cancer patient I've ever seen. Make up perfect, hair perfect...hell, she got to keep her head of hair!
- Also unbelieveable was that we were to believe that Marisol and Horatio were in love. Really?! Did they ever even kiss? He didn't even tell her he loved her until the last time he saw her before she died, and even that was almost in passing as he was getting up to leave the restaurant. Sure...this is a crime drama and we will only get glimpses of their personal lives. But they needed to establish a romance and they failed at making it believable.

Also helping the show to hurtle downhill toward its eventual failure is the Super Horatio thing they've got going on. I can't remember the episode, but it was the one with some kind of weapon that Horatio himself handled at the very end to get the bad guy. Come on...would a Lieutenant heading up the county crime lab be the one to wield the weapon that gets the bad guys? I think not.

And for God's sake, if they are getting their ideas from David Caruso, they need to stop listening to him!
 
Re: JUMP THE SHARK!!! In What Way(s) Do You Think CSI: Miami Has Jumpe

Jennifer said:
I think the show jumped the shark with the whole Marisol storyline

the Super Horatio thing they've got going on.

And for God's sake, if they are getting their ideas from David Caruso, they need to stop listening to him!
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HALLELUJAH!

Amen to that sister, I totally agree with all three points. But I really think the sole reason is that David made all of his storylines centered around...well, him!
 
Re: JUMP THE SHARK!!! In What Way(s) Do You Think CSI: Miami Has Jumpe

Wow! What a thread I just came across.......:eek:

- As I do agree with some points about the Marisol storyline, I cannot agree with anyone about this "glamour cancer" term. If I never had told you, you would never have guessed my mom has cancer. She is 58, total glamour, and can run rings around us younger ones. LOL! Not saying she doesn't have her bad days though. I have seen cancer patients in many kinds of moods, but I do agree the Marisol storyline was lacking in "believable". I really disliked how she was shot in the stomach ( of all places ), and my mother just rolled her eyes. It was just horrible what they did to her character.

- Crack open that box of Crayolas and color me tickle pink! I just love the whole "Super H" thing. As most of you have posted, I too see quite a change in Caine's behavior. It would seem, since he has lost everyone close to him, Caine has that "nothing to lose" attitude. Though the whole "feel" of the show is moving along as a charing tsunami, and maybe Caine is just being pushed along?

- Remind me, the next fan mail I write Mr. Caruso, to slap him upside the head. Him and his ideas.... men.....:guffaw:


You know, this thread has given me an idea.:evil:

Since I believed everyone's opinion was outstanding, why not make a "fan project" like this? The project could be our concerns for the show, and they are sent to TPTB? Who would like to take up the cause?

Just an idea.....
 
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Re: JUMP THE SHARK!!! In What Way(s) Do You Think CSI: Miami Has Jumpe

I think CSI: Miami jumped the shark when they brought Speed back in the form of a hallucination.

In my opinion, Speed is dead and gone. I'm sorry to Speedle fans but it was just stupid to me. Sure there was a good reason as to how he came back, with Eric having been shot and still having problems with it and everything, but IMO it was a dumb way to bring him back for a few episodes. If they wanted Rory Cochrane to do a few episodes in later seasons they shouldn't have completely killed Speed off.
 
Re: JUMP THE SHARK!!! In What Way(s) Do You Think CSI: Miami Has Jumpe

MissKraft said:
Wow! What a thread I just came across.......:eek:

- As I do agree with some points about the Marisol storyline, I cannot agree with anyone about this "glamour cancer" term. If I never had told you, you would never have guessed my mom has cancer. She is 58, total glamour, and can run rings around us younger ones. LOL! Not saying she doesn't have her bad days though.
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That's really good for your Mom and I wish her all the very best. :) It would have at least been more realistic if they had shown Marisol having a bad day now and then. Trust Miami to pick a case where they couldn't possibly portray what cancer can really do to a person, or even realistically hint at it. That would involve brave storytelling, and would be dropping the glossy image. Never going to happen on Miami.
 
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Re: JUMP THE SHARK!!! In What Way(s) Do You Think CSI: Miami Has Jumpe

CSI: Miami tries so hard to make H look like a hero that they are willing to take things to desperate measures. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but the whole "over-the-top-I'LL-SAVE-THE-DAY" Horatio is getting old.

That's all I have to say. :)

--Ally
 
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