CSI_Tipping
Victim
Re: the future of CSI
All types are great. i didn't realise there was many ways of collecting evidence using science.
All types are great. i didn't realise there was many ways of collecting evidence using science.
Forensics Questions
- Thread starter Alyssa
- Start date
NicksSexyBabe
Rookie
Re: fibers/ washing the mouth
i was wondering are their any requirements to become a field agent? and requirements for lab tech?
i was wondering are their any requirements to become a field agent? and requirements for lab tech?
adorelo
CSI Level Two
Re: fibers/ washing the mouth
Field agent in what regards?
PD? FBI? Forensics? Other?
Let me know.
Lab tech? I'm sure the wonderful Ken will pop in here soon, so I'll just state the obvious... science! Haha. Is always helpful, but I suppose you can be a 'technician' in the true sense of the word without science; but I don't think that's what you mean
.
Field agent in what regards?
PD? FBI? Forensics? Other?
Let me know.
Lab tech? I'm sure the wonderful Ken will pop in here soon, so I'll just state the obvious... science! Haha. Is always helpful, but I suppose you can be a 'technician' in the true sense of the word without science; but I don't think that's what you mean
.CSI_Tipping
Victim
Re: fibers/ washing the mouth
I fancy being both but i prefer doing field work.
I fancy being both but i prefer doing field work.
NicksSexyBabe
Rookie
Re: forensic questions
a forensic field agent
a forensic field agent
adorelo
CSI Level Two
Re: forensic questions
Like a CSI?
It depends. On a lot of things.
First, where you live. America does things differently to England who does it differently to Germany... etc.
Also, many places assign 'roles' to their field agents, so some are trained in collection of evidence, some are trained in analysis of trace, or fire arms, or the DNA evidence recovered. It's not like on the show where they do everything including PD's jobs. Poor folks would be run ragged.
There are many courses (at collage or university) for Crime Scene Investigation. I recommend talking to careers adviser, or getting on-line and looking at places you may want to go, and see if they have the course available. Myself for example, I have just given up my medical course (for various reasons) and I'm hunting down a conversion course back into psychology. Of the many options available to me, one is to do a double course in psychology with forensic science. So there are many avenues into the work.
Only thing I could suggest further is to keep up-to-date with science. If you don't study it, subscrbibe to the forensics journals or the biology and chemistry reviews.
Let me know if I can help further.
Jodie x
Like a CSI?
It depends. On a lot of things.
First, where you live. America does things differently to England who does it differently to Germany... etc.
Also, many places assign 'roles' to their field agents, so some are trained in collection of evidence, some are trained in analysis of trace, or fire arms, or the DNA evidence recovered. It's not like on the show where they do everything including PD's jobs. Poor folks would be run ragged.
There are many courses (at collage or university) for Crime Scene Investigation. I recommend talking to careers adviser, or getting on-line and looking at places you may want to go, and see if they have the course available. Myself for example, I have just given up my medical course (for various reasons) and I'm hunting down a conversion course back into psychology. Of the many options available to me, one is to do a double course in psychology with forensic science. So there are many avenues into the work.
Only thing I could suggest further is to keep up-to-date with science. If you don't study it, subscrbibe to the forensics journals or the biology and chemistry reviews.
Let me know if I can help further.
Jodie x
KenGoddard
Hit and Run
Re: fibers/ washing the mouth
Anyway, and in agreement with other posts on this thread, there are lots of international variations on the definitions of "field agent" and "lab technician." In the US, a field agent is a sworn law enforcement officer trained to investigate crimes, hunt down suspects and place them under arrest. Most agencies I'm aware of want the applicants to have at least a bachelors (4-year college/university) degree in a law enforcement related topic. A lab technician is generally considered a person with less than a bachelor's degree (perhaps a two-year 'associates' degree) in a relevant science. Such a person would typically conduct a specific type of analytical procedure (precisely following a specific protocol, step by step) over and over again using a specific instrument, and have little or no opportunity to make changes in the protocol ... as opposed, for example, to a forensic scientist would would possess at least a bachelor's degree in a relevant science, and would have access to a wide array of protocols and instruments that might be applied (or adapted) to a specific piece of evidence. In other words, a forensic scientist would be expected to make decisions as to how his/her work was performed, whereas a lab technician would simply do what they were told to do, over and over again.
Sorry, would have replied to your query earlier, but I was in Washington DC attending an American Academy of Forensics Sciences meeting. Hundreds of pathologists and many variations of forensic scientists all in one convention center, and hundreds of presentations on a wide variety of forensic topics. Kinda numbing, but also interesting.
Anyway, and in agreement with other posts on this thread, there are lots of international variations on the definitions of "field agent" and "lab technician." In the US, a field agent is a sworn law enforcement officer trained to investigate crimes, hunt down suspects and place them under arrest. Most agencies I'm aware of want the applicants to have at least a bachelors (4-year college/university) degree in a law enforcement related topic. A lab technician is generally considered a person with less than a bachelor's degree (perhaps a two-year 'associates' degree) in a relevant science. Such a person would typically conduct a specific type of analytical procedure (precisely following a specific protocol, step by step) over and over again using a specific instrument, and have little or no opportunity to make changes in the protocol ... as opposed, for example, to a forensic scientist would would possess at least a bachelor's degree in a relevant science, and would have access to a wide array of protocols and instruments that might be applied (or adapted) to a specific piece of evidence. In other words, a forensic scientist would be expected to make decisions as to how his/her work was performed, whereas a lab technician would simply do what they were told to do, over and over again.
NicksSexyBabe
Rookie
Re: forensic questions
so it would be like that reality show on Spike "Murder" when they investigate the scene and give the evidence to the lab techs and they give them reports back. and then they make the arrest...i thought thats what cops do???
so it would be like that reality show on Spike "Murder" when they investigate the scene and give the evidence to the lab techs and they give them reports back. and then they make the arrest...i thought thats what cops do???
KenGoddard
Hit and Run
Re: forensic questions
To start with the correct law enforcement terms: in the US, there are four basic 'levels' of law enforcement agencies. At the 'top' are the Federal law enforcement agencies (ie: FBI, DEA, ATF, etc) that enforce federal laws, and have 'jurisdiction' (authority to carry firearms, investigate and arrest) throughout the US. The next level down is the State law enforcement agency, whose officers enforce state laws and have jurisdiction throughout their state. The next level down is the county sheriff's department, whose deputies (title: deputy sheriff) enforce state and county laws and have jurisdiction throughout their county. Finally there are the city police departments who enforce state, county and city laws within their city, and have jurisdiction throughout their city. [note: to add a bit of confusion to the mix, city police officers and county deputies often travel outside of their jurisdictions, and could make an arrest during this time if they see a felony in progress, but they would probably just call in and notify the correct agency that a crime is occurring in their jurisdiction].
In the US, a 'field agent' is a Federal (as opposed to State) Special Agent who works out of a field office (as opposed to a headquarters office) and investigates violations of federal laws. State and local law enforcement agencies (county sheriff departments or city police departments) use the term 'detective' or 'investigator' or 'inspector' to describe a non-uniformed state, county or local law enforcement officer who investigates violations of state, county or local (city) laws. [note: special agents, detectives and investigators all are in plain clothes, drive in 'unmarked' vehicles, and 'investigate' crimes that have already happened ... whereas patrol officers wear distinctive uniforms with a badge prominently displayed, drive very clearly marked patrol cars, and basically drive around looking for suspicious activity while waiting to be sent to an immediately occurring or recently occurred crime scene].
And while the term 'lab technician' is often used in the TV shows to describe the forensic scientists who receive and analyze evidence at a crime lab, these people are almost never 'technicians' [a person with limited scientific training] but almost always forensic scientists with basic (4-year) and advanced scientific degrees and the training to examine, analyze and compare a wide range of evidence items using a wide range of techniques.
All of the above may explain why a large number of real-world forensic scientists are not fans of the TV CSI and 'cop' shows.
Ummm, yes and no. This is an interesting area where the incorrect usage of terms by TV script writers and the multiple-uses of terms by law enforcement agencies merge ... and cause confusion.
To start with the correct law enforcement terms: in the US, there are four basic 'levels' of law enforcement agencies. At the 'top' are the Federal law enforcement agencies (ie: FBI, DEA, ATF, etc) that enforce federal laws, and have 'jurisdiction' (authority to carry firearms, investigate and arrest) throughout the US. The next level down is the State law enforcement agency, whose officers enforce state laws and have jurisdiction throughout their state. The next level down is the county sheriff's department, whose deputies (title: deputy sheriff) enforce state and county laws and have jurisdiction throughout their county. Finally there are the city police departments who enforce state, county and city laws within their city, and have jurisdiction throughout their city. [note: to add a bit of confusion to the mix, city police officers and county deputies often travel outside of their jurisdictions, and could make an arrest during this time if they see a felony in progress, but they would probably just call in and notify the correct agency that a crime is occurring in their jurisdiction].
In the US, a 'field agent' is a Federal (as opposed to State) Special Agent who works out of a field office (as opposed to a headquarters office) and investigates violations of federal laws. State and local law enforcement agencies (county sheriff departments or city police departments) use the term 'detective' or 'investigator' or 'inspector' to describe a non-uniformed state, county or local law enforcement officer who investigates violations of state, county or local (city) laws. [note: special agents, detectives and investigators all are in plain clothes, drive in 'unmarked' vehicles, and 'investigate' crimes that have already happened ... whereas patrol officers wear distinctive uniforms with a badge prominently displayed, drive very clearly marked patrol cars, and basically drive around looking for suspicious activity while waiting to be sent to an immediately occurring or recently occurred crime scene].
And while the term 'lab technician' is often used in the TV shows to describe the forensic scientists who receive and analyze evidence at a crime lab, these people are almost never 'technicians' [a person with limited scientific training] but almost always forensic scientists with basic (4-year) and advanced scientific degrees and the training to examine, analyze and compare a wide range of evidence items using a wide range of techniques.
All of the above may explain why a large number of real-world forensic scientists are not fans of the TV CSI and 'cop' shows.
Speedystokesgirl
Judge
Re: forensic questions
I've been reading all the posts and I just want to make sure on a couple of things.
To be in the field, collecting evidence, you only need a 2-year degree?
You're a civilian and unarmed, but some agencies have you carry a firearm?
It also, sounds like you could be alone at a crime scene, there is no police protecting you/crime scene?
Now what about Computer Forensics? I'm thinking about changing careers. I have a fair amount of knowledge when it comes to computers. As a Computer Forensic would you work for law enforcement or with a firm that provides computer forensics?
I'm, also, considering forensics collecting evidence at a scene.
I've been reading all the posts and I just want to make sure on a couple of things.
To be in the field, collecting evidence, you only need a 2-year degree?
You're a civilian and unarmed, but some agencies have you carry a firearm?
It also, sounds like you could be alone at a crime scene, there is no police protecting you/crime scene?
Now what about Computer Forensics? I'm thinking about changing careers. I have a fair amount of knowledge when it comes to computers. As a Computer Forensic would you work for law enforcement or with a firm that provides computer forensics?
I'm, also, considering forensics collecting evidence at a scene.
KenGoddard
Hit and Run
Re: forensic questions
Different agencies are going to have different requirements for their civilian CSIs [sworn CSIs will have to meet the basic requirements of being a law enforcement officer], but there's no reason I can think of why you'd need a 4-year degree to properly work a scene and collect evidence. A 4-year science degree implies you've acquired a broad and general understanding of your scientific major as well as a broader and more general understanding of science. All very fine if you're going to be a scientist in a lab; but you really don't need that amount of general scientific education of work crime scenes. A CSI needs some basic technical skills (ie: photography, the use of a monochromatic light source, dusting for prints, etc) but a true crime scene investigator --- who is only responsible for working the crime scene and preserving/collecting evidence --- simply needs to be thoughtful, methodical, persistent and hard-working in carrying out basic CSI protocols. Doesn't mean other agencies wouldn't require their CSIs to have 4-year degrees, but I wouldn't.
Generally, if you are an unarmed or armed civilian CSI, you will have at least one uniformed officer with you at the scene for your security ... mostly because you'll be spending most of your time on your hands and knees looking down, and thus not paying much attention to who might be wandering around the scene. I worked crime scenes as an armed civilian for several years during the later part of my police career, and almost always had uniformed officers 'watching my back.' The one time I looked up, realized my protective officer had disappeared [he'd been called to respond to another scene, and hadn't bothered to let me know], I got on my radio to demand to know where my [deleted] protection had gone [it was a homicide suspect's residence, and the suspect was still on the loose], I later got chastised for using inappropriate language on the radio.
Computer forensics is a new --- and rapidly growing --- discipline within forensic science. Two basic career choices: 1) the CSI who is specifically trained to either collect a suspect's computer or 'mirror' the data in a computer that can't be seized, and does so in a manner that confims not one byte of data has been added to or removed from the hard drive; and 2) the computer analyst (a computer scientist) training to work past trips, traps and encryptions to get at the concealed data. There are a lot of jobs opening up (literally as I type) in computer forensics!
Hope this helps ....
Different agencies are going to have different requirements for their civilian CSIs [sworn CSIs will have to meet the basic requirements of being a law enforcement officer], but there's no reason I can think of why you'd need a 4-year degree to properly work a scene and collect evidence. A 4-year science degree implies you've acquired a broad and general understanding of your scientific major as well as a broader and more general understanding of science. All very fine if you're going to be a scientist in a lab; but you really don't need that amount of general scientific education of work crime scenes. A CSI needs some basic technical skills (ie: photography, the use of a monochromatic light source, dusting for prints, etc) but a true crime scene investigator --- who is only responsible for working the crime scene and preserving/collecting evidence --- simply needs to be thoughtful, methodical, persistent and hard-working in carrying out basic CSI protocols. Doesn't mean other agencies wouldn't require their CSIs to have 4-year degrees, but I wouldn't.
Generally, if you are an unarmed or armed civilian CSI, you will have at least one uniformed officer with you at the scene for your security ... mostly because you'll be spending most of your time on your hands and knees looking down, and thus not paying much attention to who might be wandering around the scene. I worked crime scenes as an armed civilian for several years during the later part of my police career, and almost always had uniformed officers 'watching my back.' The one time I looked up, realized my protective officer had disappeared [he'd been called to respond to another scene, and hadn't bothered to let me know], I got on my radio to demand to know where my [deleted] protection had gone [it was a homicide suspect's residence, and the suspect was still on the loose], I later got chastised for using inappropriate language on the radio.
Computer forensics is a new --- and rapidly growing --- discipline within forensic science. Two basic career choices: 1) the CSI who is specifically trained to either collect a suspect's computer or 'mirror' the data in a computer that can't be seized, and does so in a manner that confims not one byte of data has been added to or removed from the hard drive; and 2) the computer analyst (a computer scientist) training to work past trips, traps and encryptions to get at the concealed data. There are a lot of jobs opening up (literally as I type) in computer forensics!
Hope this helps ....
Speedystokesgirl
Judge
Re: forensic questions
So, your protection leaves you at a scene, your life is on the line and you're the one who gets chastised. Isn't that typical.
Thanks for the information, Ken, about Computer Forensics. It does help.
So, your protection leaves you at a scene, your life is on the line and you're the one who gets chastised. Isn't that typical.
Thanks for the information, Ken, about Computer Forensics. It does help.
KenGoddard
Hit and Run
Re: forensic questions
But things do go wrong at crime scenes, and often in memorable ways. I included a couple dozen such anecdotes in the CSI portion of my writing web site, for whatever amusement they might provide: www.kengoddardbooks.com/kenweb21/anecdotes.htm
Good luck with the computer forensics. If you have more questions about how all of that works, I'll be happy to link you up with our resident computer analysts (who do respond to field seizures every now and then).
:lol: Yeah, well, the officer should have let me know he was leaving, but he had a good excuse (another officer was in trouble and needed assistance ASAP) ... and I should have checked my radio first to make sure I was transmitting only to the Watch Commander and not county-wide.
But things do go wrong at crime scenes, and often in memorable ways. I included a couple dozen such anecdotes in the CSI portion of my writing web site, for whatever amusement they might provide: www.kengoddardbooks.com/kenweb21/anecdotes.htm
Good luck with the computer forensics. If you have more questions about how all of that works, I'll be happy to link you up with our resident computer analysts (who do respond to field seizures every now and then).
Speedystokesgirl
Judge
Re: forensic questions
Well, ok, that was a good excuse. I'm going to check out your website. Spounds very interesting.
Thanks again, I'll let you know. I still have to figure out how to pay for school. The last thing I need is another loan. Mortgage, bills, etc. it all adds up.
Now, do you know how to get out of a speeding ticket?
Well, ok, that was a good excuse. I'm going to check out your website. Spounds very interesting.
Thanks again, I'll let you know. I still have to figure out how to pay for school. The last thing I need is another loan. Mortgage, bills, etc. it all adds up.
Now, do you know how to get out of a speeding ticket?
KenGoddard
Hit and Run
Re: forensic questions
If you're long past that stage, and staring at your signed ticket, go to court, stand up and tell the judge something to the effect of: "First of all, your honor, I'd like to apologize to the court. Officer X was absolutely right to stop me. I was in a hurry because [see previous paragraph]. I've definitely learned my lesson and I promise you won't ever see me here again. Your odds of having the ticket dismissed: maybe 1 out of 10. Your odds of getting the fine reduced: maybe 1 out of 3.
Most importantly, note the common factor: politeness definitely counts!
Side note: the judge is highly unlikely to understand the term 'snarky.' Strongly suggest you make no efforts to educate him!
Sure, that's the easiest part. When the officer pulls you over, you roll down your window, hold your drivers license in your hand until he asks for it, hand it to him politely, look him straight in the eye, and say something to the effect of: "I know why you stopped me, officer. I shouldn't have been going that fast. I was in a hurry to get to [some place with a positive image ... ideally not the local hot bar/pub], and I didn't attention to my speedometer." Your odds: maybe one out of three, depending on how his day has been going.stokesgirl said:
Now, do you know how to get out of a speeding ticket?
If you're long past that stage, and staring at your signed ticket, go to court, stand up and tell the judge something to the effect of: "First of all, your honor, I'd like to apologize to the court. Officer X was absolutely right to stop me. I was in a hurry because [see previous paragraph]. I've definitely learned my lesson and I promise you won't ever see me here again. Your odds of having the ticket dismissed: maybe 1 out of 10. Your odds of getting the fine reduced: maybe 1 out of 3.
Most importantly, note the common factor: politeness definitely counts!
Side note: the judge is highly unlikely to understand the term 'snarky.' Strongly suggest you make no efforts to educate him!