Death of an overacted character

[Finch]

Oh, you guys, you guys, you guys!!!!:guffaw:I can't believe you're really debating back and forth about who's death scene was more realistic and whose was corny! :guffaw:Could it possibly be that Speed's was made to look more realistic because *he actually died*??? And the TPTB knew that no matter what they did, it would still be known--because it was publicized on the net--that H wasn't going to really be dead.

This is what happens when the seasons end and us board!nerds come out. :lol: Honestly, if many of us were obsessed enough, we could probably analyze the colour of Horatio's socks and what it has to do with his mood that day. (who knows, maybe it's already happening somewhere)

I think it warrants a mention because in the earlier seasons, if Horatio had gone through the same situation (being shot at the tarmac), it might have reflected the way they had done Speed's 'death scene' more. Alternatively, if Speed were still around and had been killed in season 6, it would probably look similar to the way they shot Horatio's season 6 scene. So what I think some may be getting at, is it's become so grossly over-dramatized and comical that some were wishing it were more ...serious? I don't know, maybe I'm way off. And I'm sure some people thought the scene was well-done.

 

[mjszud]

Im not speaking for everyone here, but I think if we hadn't known already that DC said "he would stage something" the scene would have given off some more "pazazz" (is that a word:cardie
Most of us viewed the epi with the idea that it could be fake, for me, that's where it lost all the excitement.

I don't wish that the scene was played out differently, I do wish that DC would kindly stop telling everyone what could be happening before it freakin' happens!!!
He should have saved that piece of little info til AFTER the season ended.

~~~~

As for DC as an actor, I think he is good.
No it doesn't take a genious actor to take off sunnies, put them back on, look to the left, look to the right, give the 'H' look, then put your hands on your hips & say something cheezy...but still, he's put Horatio Caine "on the map", he's made him who he is (good or bad).
His changing character is proof enough for me that the man can act.

But if TPTB wants to put him in a coma & turn him into vegetable dip for a while Im totally cool with that cause he hogs the screen far too much

 

[HnStetlerfan]

This is what happens when the seasons end and us board!nerds come out. :lol: Honestly, if many of us were obsessed enough, we could probably analyze the colour of Horatio's socks and what it has to do with his mood that day. (who knows, maybe it's already happening somewhere)

Actually, that sounds kind of fun. :lol:

I think it warrants a mention because in the earlier seasons, if Horatio had gone through the same situation (being shot at the tarmac), it might have reflected the way they had done Speed's 'death scene' more. Alternatively, if Speed were still around and had been killed in season 6, it would probably look similar to the way they shot Horatio's season 6 scene. So what I think some may be getting at, is it's become so grossly over-dramatized and comical that some were wishing it were more ...serious? I don't know, maybe I'm way off. And I'm sure some people thought the scene was well-done.

I just can't relate to how some of you think, though. Those of you that are the "Unhappy Camper" fans. And I have liked shows in the past that have been re-tooled or have changed in some way that has ruined them for me. So, well, up to a point I do know how you feel. You never wanted the show to change at all and you're mad. But, I don't know, I just love this show. I loved the earlier episodes and I love the current ones. They all have something that to me was/is well-done and cool. And, in my opinion, I don't think Speed's death would have been any less believable (and devastating) if it had happened this season. And I'm glad they didn't make H's "death" more gory like that because it would have really upset me to see that happen to him.

Im not speaking for everyone here, but I think if we hadn't known already that DC said "he would stage something"

You know we don't actually know if what he told us is true!

As for DC as an actor, I think he is good.
No it doesn't take a genious actor to take off sunnies, put them back on, look to the left, look to the right, give the 'H' look, then put your hands on your hips & say something cheezy...but still, he's put Horatio Caine "on the map", he's made him who he is (good or bad).
His changing character is proof enough for me that the man can act.

But if TPTB wants to put him in a coma & turn him into vegetable dip for a while Im totally cool with that cause he hogs the screen far too much

Ok, I agree with everything you said except for the last paragraph. And also, I think the man is pretty darn smart to have come up with such a unique, memorable character.

 

[Finch]

I just can't relate to how some of you think, though. Those of you that are the "Unhappy Camper" fans. And I have liked shows in the past that have been re-tooled or have changed in some way that has ruined them for me. So, well, up to a point I do know how you feel. You never wanted the show to change at all and you're mad

Well, (and I can't speak for everyone) I'm personally not mad at how it turned out and I have no problem with a show changing. Evolution is a natural thing. I just have problems with some of the ways the show has changed. But to each his own. It's still my favourite show and I watch every Monday. I'd call myself an 'unsettled camper' at times but not always.

Being critical of some areas of the show doesn't necessarily unhappy make. I can't imagine a television show in which I love every single aspect.

^^ The vegetable dip bit cracked me up, mjszud. :lol: (And yes, I'm a Horatio fan)

 

[Della]

I just can't relate to how some of you think, though. Those of you that are the "Unhappy Camper" fans. And I have liked shows in the past that have been re-tooled or have changed in some way that has ruined them for me. So, well, up to a point I do know how you feel. You never wanted the show to change at all and you're mad. But, I don't know, I just love this show. I loved the earlier episodes and I love the current ones. They all have something that to me was/is well-done and cool. And, in my opinion, I don't think Speed's death would have been any less believable (and devastating) if it had happened this season. And I'm glad they didn't make H's "death" more gory like that because it would have really upset me to see that happen to him.

I’m not mad or angry, I’m annoyed, an “unhappy camper”. Getting truly irate and angry over a TV program just seems like too much effort for something that is, essentially, just a TV program.

As for evolution of a program – I’m all for a program evolving, however, in my opinion, CSI Miami hasn’t evolved at all, it’s regressed. I mean, the complaint that CSI Miami was/is comic-book in style has been around for, well, sometimes it feels like almost at Miami’s conception, but I have defended against it in the past because I had thought the characters were such good, solid and, on the whole, believable ones that it was those characters who kept the program from becoming wholly comic-book in style. Now though, what with the characters behaving waaaaay out there the entire thing is now unbelievable. Unbelievable situations with unbelievable characters = Soap Opera in my opinion.

Oh my goodness me... Oh... Oh no... David Caruso is a Soap Star. The looking into the camera while delivering a line, the dramatic delivery of a dramatic line, the dramatic step out of a dramatic situation... Oh my goodness me... Why haven’t I noticed this before? Oh, that’s right, because the Horatio Caine character used to be a character grounded by, at the very least, a hint of believability.

All joking aside, okay, well, most of the joking aside, if CSI Miami had started out as this fantastical, unbelievably conceived program full of unbelievable characters, you wouldn’t be hearing a peep out of me, well, probably because I wouldn’t have been watching in the first place, but, hey-ho, Miami didn’t start out that way at all and I just can’t get my head around the fact that what they’ve done to the characters could even be considered as ‘evolving’.

Showing the lead, who is employed as an LEO, behaving just as a criminal would and getting away with it could be called ‘evolving’? How so? Showing the secondary characters, who also happen to be LEOs, as being complicit in the leads personal vendetta against someone who hasn’t actually been proven to be guilty of anything could also be called ‘evolving’? How so?

To be honest, having Horatio taking a walk on the ‘Dark Side’ (cue heavy breathing through a mask) is, for me, about as unbelievable and as disrespectful of the character as it was when they decided to show Jim Phelps in the ‘Mission Impossible’ movie selling out his country for money.

In my opinion, if CSI Miami wanted a cop who was also dabbling in the ‘Dark Side’ then they should have introduced one. I don’t think they should have regressed the Horatio Caine character into this mindless thug who has no respect for the Law, or for that matter, anything else, not when all of the character establishments in the past suggested the complete opposite. ‘Tis boll*cks.

 

[Bigdog]

LOL Della, it may make you want to stop watching it but of course you are going to watch again to see what happens when season 7 starts. Regardless of how bad the acting is from one person to another, people still watch it no matter how annoyed they get off of it for a few reasons.

No matter how much you hate a person or main character the show is still good even if some people are bad actors at certain things. Want to see a bad actor? watch a movie with Ben Afflecks (sp?) brother, now that guy is a bad actor :x

I do agree though with some of the things but really they are so minor that it's something a person hates but yet they will still watch it. Although we haven't seen any future episodes so here are a few that will most likely show up in season seven. I knew they wouldn't show up on the 6th season, especially after "to kill a predator". That will continue on the season 7 and we may find out what the deal is with Horatio. So far 2 people in Horatio Cain's life have been killed. One blew up and that was when the show first aired I think and then speedle got shot. It gives you a hint in a past episode, I think he was talking to a therapist or something but someone might know more about that.

Everything comes together sooner or later. It just seems like with the newer episodes, it takes longer which actually does bug me because I like to know what the hell happens.

Think about this though, in a interview video on youtube that I posted on here like a few days ago. They explained CSI: Miami compared to the other ones, Someone on these forums did also. CSI: Miami is more of a comic book made into a show (which has really been great) while the other CSI shows are completely different. Now think about this. If CSI has a more of a comic book thing with it and Horatio Cain is the super hero. Well, In all Superhero Comic Books such as spiderman, superman, etc etc. There are points where somehow the superhero turns bad for maybe one comic book and in the next comic book they find out whats wrong.

 

[Della]

LOL Della, it may make you want to stop watching it but of course you are going to watch again to see what happens when season 7 starts. Regardless of how bad the acting is from one person to another, people still watch it no matter how annoyed they get off of it for a few reasons.

Um, not sure if this will be too much of a disappointment for you, but I don't actually fall into the category of watching a program to piss myself off.

The only program I gave a Season's worth of time to see if it realised that by ignoring fundamental character establishments it had ruined the program was Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I adored the Giles character and also Spike and so what they did to both those characters, and Xander was ludicrous. I stopped watching after Season 4 because I thought I had given up enough of my viewing time watching a pile of shite that couldn't give a toss for its characters.

So on that, I'm not about to waste time watching and hoping that CSI Miami is even going to consider changing the format it has recently introduced. What they've done is not my cup of tea at all, so, to be perfectly honest with you I really couldn't give a toss what happens in Season 7.

No matter how much you hate a person or main character the show is still good even if some people are bad actors at certain things. Want to see a bad actor? watch a movie with Ben Afflecks (sp?) brother, now that guy is a bad actor :x

As said, 'good acting' and 'bad acting' is subjective. We may even agree one time on who is a 'bad actor' or a 'good actor', but that doesn't mean they are a 'good actor' or a 'bad actor'.

In that respect you can throw all the names you want to at me and claim them as being a bad actor, or even a worse actor than DC - and I may agree with your opinion of them being a worse actor than DC. However, all in all, no matter how much I might agree with you, it won't actually change my opinion of what I think of DC's acting.

I do agree though with some of the things but really they are so minor that it's something a person hates but yet they will still watch it.

Ignoring every fundamental character establishment, especially in a Lead Character, is not at all 'minor' to me. As said before in another thread, there are set boundaries that your characters have to behave in, that's what backgrounds and past establishments are all about, or if the characters are going to say or do something that will be considered wildly out-of-character, then there has to be reasonable foreshadowing so that the out-of-characterness is understandable to the viewing audience. As far as I'm concerned, this season they haven't done anything of the sort with the Horatio character.

Although we haven't seen any future episodes so here are a few that will most likely show up in season seven. I knew they wouldn't show up on the 6th season, especially after "to kill a predator". That will continue on the season 7 and we may find out what the deal is with Horatio. So far 2 people in Horatio Cain's life have been killed. One blew up and that was when the show first aired I think and then speedle got shot. It gives you a hint in a past episode, I think he was talking to a therapist or something but someone might know more about that.

Everything comes together sooner or later. It just seems like with the newer episodes, it takes longer which actually does bug me because I like to know what the hell happens.

You see this is the problem. When they showed Horatio going a bit off the rails during the Marisol dying period, there was plenty of foreshadowing to explain, and help the audience member to at least understand why they were going to show Horatio acting out-of-character - when they had him hunting down Riaz to kill him.

Another important difference between what's happening now to what happened then is that Riaz had already been found guilty of murder and that it was another Agency who had decided to do a deal with Riaz.

In this instance, with Ron saris, oh Horatio might have this really strong gut-feeling that tells him Ron Saris is dirty, but he has no evidence whatsoever to back that up. Horatio has a list of names which includes Ron Saris' name, but there are other names on that list which he has blatantly ignored in favour of his own personal vendetta against Ron Saris.

The one fundamental thing that an LEO has to work with and that's the evidence, because working with the evidence eliminates the possibility of anyone questioning the Officer's motivation. A lawyer would not be able to later claim that his client was arrested because of an Officer's prejudice, or bigotry, or because of a personal vendetta, or a hatred they have towards the suspect and so on. So, on that, there should be no 'Everything will come together sooner or later', because that's like showing your characters believing that there is nothing wrong with the premise of "Guilty until proven innocent" - and that's utter b*llocks, especially when it comes to what has already been established with the Horatio Caine character.

Think about this though, in a interview video on youtube that I posted on here like a few days ago. They explained CSI: Miami compared to the other ones, Someone on these forums did also. CSI: Miami is more of a comic book made into a show (which has really been great) while the other CSI shows are completely different. Now think about this. If CSI has a more of a comic book thing with it and Horatio Cain is the super hero. Well, In all Superhero Comic Books such as spiderman, superman, etc etc. There are points where somehow the superhero turns bad for maybe one comic book and in the next comic book they find out whats wrong.

In my opinion, it was the situations CSI Miami screened which leant the program towards the comic-book style, however, the characters never were, which is why I found CSI Miami enjoyable when I first started watching it, because it was the characters that grounded the storylines with a hint of believability. If your characters are behaving in a believable manner, then they ground the ridiculous scenes with as much believability. However, the moment your characters become unbelievable, then the scenes which were unbelievable in the first place, become more so.

So, because the Horatio Caine character now appears to be this indestructable force, a character who is as unbelievable as the storylines that surround him, I can't help but wholeheartedly agree with those who have claimed that CSI Miami was nothing but a series of comic-book episodes, because they are entirely comic-book now.

I really couldn't give a toss that going by comic-book lore it is a given that the Horatio Caine character must therefore, for a brief moment, turn to the 'Dark Side' , just so he can see how wrong he has been.

Because, in my opinion, the Horatio Caine character was not a 'Comic Book Character' when CSI Miami first started screening its episodes and you convincing me that he is now, (which actually doesn't take any convincing at all), only proves to me just how unbelievable the Horatio Character has become.

So, after all that, no I won't be watching Season 7 and thankfully Hubby only watches NY and LV, so it looks like I won't even have to sit through recording the Miami episodes anymore.

 

[Bigdog]

now you may not watch the whole season 7 but I am pretty sure you will watch the first episode of season 7 because of the cliffhanger or you might watch a few more episodes to see where it is actually going. I do agree that that there are parts they should have never done such as Horatio shooting like 7 guys and 4 of them having guns without them getting one shot off was pretty lame and in poor taste. We all know that anyone else would have died in such a situation. Not only that but he wasn't really that fast at shootting them all.

really though, NY is ok but then again in my opinion it does get really. It seems like one of those shows you watch on a boring rainy day. I have not watched CSI:LV or whatever so I might have to toon into that. But CSI Miami is refreshing but they could have done stuff on there even more stupid which they didn't. And the fact that Horatio is going dark shouldn't really bother anyone, that is what I don't understand is how it can bother someone. He might only go dark for so long before he gets back into is old ways.

After watching season 1 and the first few episodes I noticed he didn't do any one liners. He actually acted like a normal person and really I was more involved into that Horatio character rather then the one liner style of Horatio. The first few episodes he didn't have one liners, when he would think he would sit on the table like some people do but he doesn't have that suttle feel to him which I do by the way find kind of annoying. I hope to god they put his character back to what it use to be like in the first few episodes where he was actually normal. In those few episodes or it could have been the whole season one if Horatio would have went darker I think it would have been more tasteful since his personality was so human and he actually spoke in sentences rather then just 4 to 6 words here or there. I know I am exaggerating a little bit but you get the idea.

It did shock me though after "to kill a predator" but I think my heart would have sunk even more if his personality was based more on the first season. I also do see the point in his posture from the first season until he started looking down which at that point he is acting more like a drama queen while before he was acting more like a MAN. I believe they should put Horatio into therapy on season 7 and after a few therapy visits he starts talking in sentences and has stuff to say....like in the first season. The way is posture is even though he went through a lot still doesn't make sense while he is looking like he is "round shouldered".

I didn't say you would watch it to piss yourself off, I think you missed the point. I believe you will still watch at least some of next season to see where it's going and I am pretty sure we will see you on here after the first episode of season 7. that is just my opinion though or maybe you will be burnt out of going to forums discussing things and leaving it a cliffhanger for me LOL.

Friday I started watching season 1. My girlfriend and I went through a few seasons and I noticed after watching them in order within that short amount of time I was getting the thought of "OMG that is so much BS" or "YEA RIGHT" when watching episodes past season 3. I noticed the believability started going down on a lot of things after season 3. Anyways I must say that watching Horatio's character on season 1 was so much better, he was looser, not tence, and like I said, he actually completed sentences and would talk like a normal person that was smart. Like I said before on this post, if the Horatio on season 1 would have beat up the sex offender on the 6th season it would have been a lot more tasteful and I think people would have been more comfortable?......that might not be the word for it but it would have been more understanding and........... well whatever you know what I mean.

After watching a few seasons and watching the drastic change....it was drastic too because he all of a sudden started acting like a completely different horatio, it's weird really. These are too people that are the same but yet they are two different Horatio's, people change and I know that but usually when someone changes so much and in a bad way it means they are about to go into a looney bin. In season 5 Horatio looks like he had to many marbles fall out of his head and I noticed season 6 is even worse. It's not the acting though that is doing this. I wont blame David Caruso on this one, you know who I'll blame. Season 1 he was just fine and his acting was very good.

The reason now I am agreeing with you on some parts was because I actually had to watch the first season all the way to now which I have a lot on my DVR and had to see a list so I could watch them in order. I noticed that there are A LOT of missing episodes. There is A LOT of stuff inbetween certain episodes that miss very crucial points that they should have made before continuing, but that's the writers fault on the actors. him being in other movies is not really valid until his acting changed to what we see now then what his acting use to be. So I can understand what you are talking about with the acting. Unless your saying is acting was always bad and if it bothered you so much how the heck were able to watch all the seasons or most of them.

I definitely agree with you now after watching them in order and seeing the flaws and the HUGE changes. Also in Season 1, I must bring up season 1 because even after season 1 the group contact was starting to go slowly but it's noticable still after season 1. Anyway, in Season 1 I did notice the point that when Horatio talked there were more then just one other person and a lot of times it was 4 people in the lab listening to him or coming up with stuff. They are just concentrating to much on 2 people at a time or 1 person at a time rather then a TEAM.

 

[Della]

All in all BigDog I can’t stop you from believing what you will as to whether I will watch the first episode of Season 7 or not. All I know is that the Horatio character no longer holds any interest for me and therefore whatever happens to the character from this point will still on hold no interest for me. I’m afraid I will not be watching Season 7.

Okay now that that’s out of the way.

The funny thing is I actually had no qualms at all with Horatio shooting the three guys who had guns pointed at him, and that goes for the ones on the motorcycles and the one in the car. What I strongly objected to and still do is Horatio executing the injured, unarmed, lying flat on his front on the ground member of Mala Noche gang, and for reasons I have stated many times now, in this thread and others.

I don’t watch NY or LV with any interest, so I can’t personally use them to validate or invalidate how badly CSI Miami is now. I was not as interested in NY or LV, I was only interested in CSI Miami, so, I can only validate or invalidate what they have done now with the Horatio character by what has occurred in the past on CSI Miami.

In all honesty, BigDog, how I view things is that what little quirks a person might have those quirks are not the sum and all of that person, which is why when the Horatio character adopted those quirks I was not phased by them. They were inconsequential in what made Horatio, Horatio to me. I was more interested in how he behaved, what motivated him, why he did the job that he did and Season 1 was full of those types of gems, as was Season 2 & 3 in my opinion.

However, by the end of Season 4, despite there being a hell of a lot of foreshadowing going on, in my opinion, the storylines seemed to occur simply for the storylines and nothing else. For instance, I think someone thought, ‘Okay, let’s hurt Horatio. Let’s have someone close to him die’ and that, in my opinion, is about as far as they got with their thinking, because all of the logistics from that point on flew out of the window.

In my opinion, Horatio acted as anyone would when ‘Human Instinct’ governs your actions – he wanted personal vengeance, and it was only the foreshadowing at that time which helped me understand that. But what it didn’t do was evolve the character in any way shape or form, simply because the character was running on Human Instinct, and that’s a condition which says nothing about the character as a whole.

In other words, while I disagreed with Horatio’s actions back then, I fully understood them. The same cannot be said with his executing the member of the Mala Noche gang and neither can it be said of his beating up the Paedophile. Both instances were completely out of character, out of the blue, without any foreshadowing to explain those actions.

Also, during the Marisol debacle, the show’s premise, it being a ‘Crime Scene Investigation’ show, was just scenery throughout that entire storyline and to be honest the concept of the show has taken a backseat ever since. So much so, that there was no longer as much respect being shown towards the characters, but an awful lot more focus on what they thought would please the audience – and, for me, the moment that started to happen CSI Miami started to lose its depth, its three dimensional portrayals of the characters – Right up until what we have now which is a program nigh-on full to the brim of ill-conceived storylines and unbelievable, wholly two-dimensional characters.

If it can be explained as being a ‘Natural evolution of the program’, then as far as I’m concerned they can keep it. I would be more inclined to call it ‘Regression’ because the characters are not evolving at all.

Horatio is hell bent on making sure Ron Saris does not survive another day. If anyone can look back on the first, second and third Seasons of CSI Miami and tell me that they believe the Horatio Caine character has evolved as a character then in all honesty they are a better person than me.

All in all, BigDog, in my opinion, the First Season of any program is usually spent on establishing and developing the characters, not only so that the audience would have a better take on them, but also because the actors/actresses portraying those characters would also have a better handle on them.

As said somewhere else, maybe in this thread, the backgrounds and the character establishments/developments are the playground in which the characters behave and yet, for me, it’s like someone came in this Season, bulldozed Horatio’s playground and decided to erect some sort of monstrosity in its place.

What I’m trying to say is that Horatio is now an ugly character to me. It doesn’t matter how pretty he might look on the surface, because beneath it is this insidious thug who doesn’t really care about anything. I'm afraid that for me, they have now irrevocably changed the character for the worse, and no amount of "Whoops, I see how wrong I was" will change that for me because I can no longer trust the character. I mean, what will be the next thing that sets him off? Hitting his thumb instead of the nail?

Soooo, anyway, this is one reason why I have such a problem with Horatio taking a dip in the ‘Dark Side’. The other would be because it has been completely contrived. There hasn’t been one justifiable foreshadowing of why Horatio has suddenly turned vigilante, not when you take into consideration all that has been established with the character in the past.

Horatio’s actions are not being governed by Human Instinct. I don’t actually know what is governing Horatio to be honest, but I do know that it’s not Human Instinct.



Edited to add: ...I've really enjoyed this conversation, Bigdog, however, I think I'm detecting a hint of repetition in my posts, so maybe this conversation should maybe come to a natural end?

Thanks again, though. It's really nice to be able to have a chat without having to worry whether any insults are going to taint the conversation or not.

Cheers!