Controversial Discussion/Debate

Kimbo08

Kimbo08

CSI Level One
I've recently enrolled in a debate class at my local college. It doesn't go towards my major, I just have an interest in what other people think about "taboo topics" such as:

-Abortion
-Same-Sex Marriage/Rights
-Disciplining Children: Spanking vs. Time-out
-Immigration
-Healthcare
-The Death Penalty

Alot of the above topics are quite touchy. I also know that alot of the above topics could be seen as political issues. The point of creating this thread is to see how people stand on these issues.

Mods, I'm not sure if you guys want this thread to stay open, as it may get heated, but I think it would be an interesting social discussion about controversial topics that usually aren't talked about. I didn't think it belonged in the Presidential Election thread, but if that's where you want to move it, or close it for that matter, I understand.

I feel the rules of the thread should shawdow those of the 08 Presidential Election thread, which essentially states that everyone's opinion should be respected. I feel that this thread can survive and thrive if we uphold these rules.

The first topic I wanted to talk about, is Same-Sex Marriage. What I've personally noticed is that the dividing line between people who are OK with Same-Sex marriage, and those who do not agree with Same-Sex marriage, is generation. Most of the older(40-70) people I've talked to, do not want Same-Sex Marriage to be legalized and believe it damages the integrity of heterosexual marriage. Where as younger people(18-39) lean more towards allowing it.

I believe that Same-Sex marriage should be legalized in all 50 states. Why? Because I feel it is constitutionally just. Many excerpts from the Constitution show that not allowing Gay Marriage can be seen as discrimination. I agree 100% with this.

Any thoughts?
 
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For now the thread will stay open but it will be watched careful :)

As Kimbo08 has stated please be respectful of each others opinions. We're all entitled to our say whether someone else likes it or not. I do like a good discussion and I like to read others opinions even if there aren't mine.
 
I also agree that same sex marriages should be a right for everyone. Here in Belgium it's legalized, although I don't really know any gay couple that has gotten married (yet). I do know a few gay couples and I don't understand how anyone would want to prevent them from being happy if they would want to marry. Love is a beautiful thing, whether it's boy/girl, boy/boy or girl/girl. Marriage is the celebration of that love, to tell the world that you love each other, and celebrate that with family and friends.
 
This is a great idea, all the topics are really interesting! :)

Personally, I don't have a problem with same-sex marriages, despite my religious beliefs. I think it should be legalized in the UK aswell as in the states, and why not? We're in the 21st Century, if we're tolerant of others beliefs/views/ideas, then why can't we be tolerant for other peoples sexuality. Here UK I believe Civil Partnership is allowed for same-sex couples correct me if I'm wrong, but that just not the same thing.
 
Kimbo08 said:
The first topic I wanted to talk about, is Same-Sex Marriage. What I've personally noticed is that the dividing line between people who are OK with Same-Sex marriage, and those who do not agree with Same-Sex marriage, is generation. Most of the older(40-70) people I've talked to, do not want Same-Sex Marriage to be legalized and believe it damages the integrity of heterosexual marriage. Where as younger people(18-39) lean more towards allowing it.
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Now you've raised an interesting item here about the age gaps. My husband and I are in the 40-70 bracket. We are split down the middle on the idea of same-sex marriages. My husband has no problem with 2 men or 2 women having a legalised partnership. He feels that a 'marriage' is between a man and a woman. I personally have no problems with 2 men or 2 women getting married if that is the only way they can get the same legal benefits that heterosexual couples are entitled to. Here in Canada same sex marriages have been allowed since 2005.


As to knowing any gays that have married, we did have a couple, that were customers in our store, that were married. I don't know when they got married but they did. They had been together for years. I'm glad that they did get married because about 4 years ago one of them got very sick and unfortunately passed away. If they hadn't gotten married his partner wouldn't have had any say in what care he got in the hospital.

I think you'll find for the 40-70 year old crowd it's more a dislike to change that could be the underlying problem. We grew up in an era where marriage was only between a man and a women. We didn't know any difference. The younger crowd have gone to school with people that are more open about who they are which might be why they are more accepting of gay marriages.

I also have a sister and brother-in-law in the 40-70 age bracket. My sister is all for gay marriages and her husband is against. So are women more accepting of gay marriages were the men are against it?
 
Jacquie said:
I think you'll find for the 40-70 year old crowd it's more a dislike to change that could be the underlying problem. We grew up in an era where marriage was only between a man and a women. We didn't know any difference. The younger crowd have gone to school with people that are more open about who they are which might be why they are more accepting of gay marriages.

I also have a sister and brother-in-law in the 40-70 age bracket. My sister is all for gay marriages and her husband is against. So are women more accepting of gay marriages were the men are against it?
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You make an excellet point there, Jacquie! A lot of it is a dislike to change and people who are older tend to be more religious, as well. I'm 41 and I believe that gays and lesbians have the right to marry. Why not? It doesn't harm anything. My mom, who is in her 70s, doesn't have a problem with gays and lesbians being married, just not to call it a marriage; as she believes that marriage is between a man and woman and that it's in the Bible. (Now my mom isn't that religious, but we were raised Catholic (though I don't follow any religion anymore and that's another issue), but I just wanted to show how it's religious views too.

I agree that the younger generation is more open to it and if gays and lesbian were allowed to be 'out' and not hide things, I think people would eventually get used to it and it wouldn't be such a big deal. I think it takes an understanding to accept and not ignorance.

You could, in essence, compare it to the Civil rights movement. Many people couldn't see blacks and whites sitting in the same restaurant, go to the same schools, etc., but now people are used to it and accept it and think they should have the same rights as whites. Yes, there are still some that don't believe that, but you will always have that.

I think women are more tolerant and accepting of gays then men are. I think, and I could be wrong, that men are not as secure with their sexuality as women are. If a man come on to them, they would freak, where as a woman wouldn't if a woman came on to her. Men are accepting of lesbians and that's just a sexual fantasy, but they can't handle two men being together.

I think as time goes on and the future generations become more tolerant of it, marriage between gays and lesbians will be accepting and legal.

I think marriage between gays and lesbians should be legal in all states and countries. When two people love each other and want to spend their life together, they should be able to with all the same benefits as heterosexual couples do.
 
i think anyone who wants to get married should be able to, as long as it's to another consenting adult. pretty straightforward really. i don't ever want to get married, but i suspect my brothers do - one of them is gay and i'm sure that'd be something he'd look into. my parents might not like it but as far as i'm concerned it's his right and if he wants it that's fine, which is exactly what i'd say if anyone else wanted to get married.
 
I think it depens on how you are brought up. I t may also vary with religious beliefs.



-Abortion -Definatly against it. In my opinion it doesen't matter at what trimester the woman is in, the embryo is a living thing, and destroying it, is equvalent to killing a human being. If the child is not wanted/ or the woman cannot afford to support the child, she can always find other alternatives i.e. adoption.

It breaks my heart to see pictures of tiny babies, having their arms & legs broken to get the baby out of the womb. It tears me apart, it rips my heart out:(. It's one child that we will never see smile, or say the first word or take first step...To me a child is a miracle...I can't see someone give up on something so beautiful.

I don't know how so many woman go through that...I will never be able to give up on my child no matter what the cause.

Plus, Fetillity is a BIG issue now a days, I'm sure couple who unfortunatly can't have kids can provide all the needs of a child, and all the love.


-Immigration - I can relate on a personal level, I went through the process, it was difficult, and took a while. Also, getting used to a new enviroment/culture/ and language was very difficult, for me it was a bit easy cuz I had lesson before we left, but for my parents it was a diffuclt.

Even more difficult leaving everything behind, family, friends, and all the things we knew so well.

I don't about United States,but in Canada immaigration as of a recent law adoption has been made more difficult for immigrants. It used to that If parents take the test and pass - the parents and their kids kids get the Citizenship, and now everybody gotta take the test.





-The Death Penalty- I wrote an essay on this subject, so this should be interesting.
 
Interesting discussion. I am one that will defy your age group trends, but only by a year. I am 39 now and believe that marriage is one man-one woman, as the Bible states. Marriage does not automatically confer legal benefits, btw, and my sister had to spend a lot of time getting all the necessary paperwork drawn up to handle legal medical issues for her husband should he be unable to speak for himself. Anyone can be designated a beneficiary or legal representative.

As for gays - I have worked with several, and knew one woman who loved her girlfriend so much she took to stealing to handle the gf's medical bills. I have no problem with civil unions, but I just can't go against thousands of years of tradition providing stable families that are the great stronghold for society. When the poo hits the fan, families are the units that survive.
 
I really like the discussion that has come up. I was afraid no one would comment! :)

The age brackets I came up with have room for error. Both of my parents are 53 and my mother, who is a devout christian, thinks a 'marriage' should be between a man and a woman. Where as my father believes that people who love each other should have the right to be together, and he is as homophobic as you get, unfortunately.

As many have said it is more towards a dislike for change and most of the debates that I have heard from people in the 40-70 bracket, are those with a religious backing. I've been born and raised as a christian, but this is something I definitely do not agree with. The problems I have researched when dealing with same sex marriage is that many civil unions do not have the same rights that a hetero couple has.

Abortion- VERY touchy I'm sure. I'm sorry if this thread hurts anyone's feelings in any way. I am pro-choice when it comes to this issue. Would I ever get one? No, but that is because of my personal preference. Not saying that anyone who gets one is bad, it's just I cannot see myself getting one. I believe that woman should have a choice as to what to do. I feel that I have not received enough information as to when an embryo/fetus/zygote actually feels. I've heard many theories, but until it has been sifted through and proven, I'm somewhat on the fence.

About the adoption aspect of pro-life, adoption agencies and foster homes have children coming out of their ears, LITERALLY. The homes are so full with children, that I'm not completely sure it's right for a child to be born into a foster care and bounce around home to home for 18 years. Are children being adopted? Yes, but not at a rate high enough to cancel out abortion rates....if that makes sense...

Immigration- I live in Arizona, where the border battle with Mexico is ever present. 95% of the state is against immigration. I, however, sympathize with them. I was blessed enough to born 90 miles above the border, in a country of opportunity. Whereas, many Mexican families never got that chance. Do they need to do it legally? Yes, they do. But without immigration, America wouldn't be what it is now. All of the different cultures and people make America great, IMO.

Death Penalty - IMO, the saying, "An eye for and eye makes the world blind" rings true. Taking a life because they took a life(or even tens of lives for that matter) makes no sense. I feel that the greater punishment would be to live in solitary confinement.
 
Well, I'll say this about the death penalty. I'm all for it. If a person takes a life, that person should no longer have any rights. However, I do think that the execution is rather tame. I mean put someone to sleep and then put them to death? :wtf: Their victim(s) didn't have that chance.

I believe the electric chair should be brought back or execute them the same they killed their victims. What right does this criminal have to have it easy when their victim doesn't. I'm sick and tired of the guilty's rights being protected when the victim's rights are not.

Does executing someone bring that person(s) back? No, but why should the be able to live, at OUR EXPENSE? I'm don't work hard at my job to support a murderer.

Now, if they are going to do the executions by lethal injection, then these inmates should be required to donate their organs (only if medically they can, obviously). At least this way in the end they GAVE life, instead of taking it away.

As for the adoption thing: Kimbo, you said, foster care has to many children that are unwanted and I don't believe in bringing an unwanted child into this world.

I am Pro-choice, however, I do not think I would be able to have an abortion. I, also, don't believe that if the child is a result of rape, molestation, or incest should I be required to carry this baby for 9-months and then have to live with the fact that this kid is out there somewhere.

What I have a problem with people who are Pro-life is that worry too much about the children that DON'T make it into this world and don't care about the ones that are already here. I don't see them adopting this kids in foster care and giving them a loving family to grow in and be a part of.

I don't agree with Pro-lifers, however, I will defend their right to have that right and whether the agree with it or not, Roe vs. Wade gives them that right.

It's hard to agree with some Pro-life people when they go and murder the doctors performing abortions or bombing clinics. Obviously, this is a very small percentage, but still.

Using abortion as a method of birth control is wrong, but unwanted pregnancies do happen to people who try not to get pregnant. If the child is unwanted, why bring them into this world?
 
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Yes, but there are many reports out there that suggest the death-penalty is more expensive than life in prison. So, if money is one of the main factors, than solitary confinement makes more sense.
 
Kimbo08 said:
Yes, but there are many reports out there that suggest the death-penalty is more expensive than life in prison. So, if money is one of the main factors, than solitary confinement makes more sense.
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That's true, but there are reports out there that say different. I don't think solitary confinement will make a bit of difference and I still don't want to support them and they should have to be organ donors. At least their last act was to save a person(s) life.

Actually, a lot of punishment today doesn't make a bit of difference, but if you murder someone and then you receive the death penalty and would be executed the same way you murdered your victim, that might deter some people.

Ugh, nothing will deter them.
 
Jacquie said:
I think you'll find for the 40-70 year old crowd it's more a dislike to change that could be the underlying problem. We grew up in an era where marriage was only between a man and a women. We didn't know any difference. The younger crowd have gone to school with people that are more open about who they are which might be why they are more accepting of gay marriages.
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I don't think it's a dislike to change so much as a full 180 from what we were brought up to believe (I'm 51.) In my time, gays were in the closet, and the term gay wasn't even in use yet (it still meant "happy.") For the most part, people didn't like the idea of homosexuality and unless some male was really effeminate or a woman was very masculine in her behavior (beyond the "tomboy" image,) then no one ever thought about it. Woe betide that poor guy or gal who was too "feminine" or "masculine."

So in effect, we've gone from majority non-acceptance of the practice to a time frame in which people are being asked to accept it fully. Not everyone in my age group has reacted the same way. Some embrace the change fully, some are conflicted about it and others are adamantly against things like gay marriage.

I'm kind of conflicted. It's hard to get past how I was raised and for me, it seems to go against natural male-female biology. But I have a "live and let live" philosophy which tends to make it a bit easier. Plenty of people do things which personally make me a bit uncomfortable, but I take the "mind your own business," attitude meaning it's not my place to judge others.
 
Bonz i think it is tricky when you start talking about "natural" behaviour because many animal species exhibit both bisexual behaviour and homosexual behaviour. they do not have social norms or taboos or rules, and yet it happens.

my mother has always said a persons sexuality should only matter to you if you want to have sex with them, and i agree with her. im not sure who decided what "tradition" is anyway. if you want to get technical, for a long time the "traditional" marriage was between one man and however many women he could afford to buy.

no couple has any affect on the status of any other couple. my parents are still married, my family is still a family, even though gay couples can get married in canada. it makes absolutely no difference whatsoever, i do not understand that argument. i know i would rather have gay parents than many of the straight people out there.
 
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