Character flaws, foibles, annoyances and aggravations

[Faylinn]

I've seen people suggest that Lindsay is unfairly picked-on in this forum, so I thought we may as well have a place to air our grievances about the rest of the team. Not to be presumptuous, but I didn't think we'd need a thread for each character. There's already a place to comment about Lindsay (the Why Lindsay Must Go thread), so this thread can concentrate on problems we have with the others. (There used to be an anti-Danny thread, but it died a while ago, so I figured I'd leave it buried.)

Main and recurring characters are all fair game, and if you want to bring up a former character, you're well within your rights.

Since the characters are a combination of writing and acting, I'm sure both will come up, and both are valid as long as we don't say anything that will earn a smack upside the head from Top41 or MrsGiovinazzo.

As with any discussion, there will definitely be people who disagree with one another, but I think it's safe to say I'm not the only one who looks forward to the debate. Nobody should take it personally if a character they like is mentioned or if someone disagrees with their comments about another character.

Just a note: Coming in just to post one-line potshots will probably lead to more arguments than discussions.

I think that covers pretty much everything, so let the discussion commence!

 

[Top41]

With the exception of Lindsay, it's mostly little things:

Mac can be so damn righteous sometimes. He rides his high horse and doesn't have a lot of perspective on himself when he's the one under fire. That said, I know he means well.

Stella's hardness rubbed me the wrong way in the first few eps of first season, but I'm glad they've found a balance with her, making her tough and still humane.

Danny has the worst judge of character of any human being on this planet. If you want to know who the killer is, just ask Danny who he thinks didn't do it, and you've got your man/woman/deadly house plant. Danny also seeks out unhealthy relationships, such as his desperate need for Mac's approval in s. 1 and his relationship with Lindsay.

Lindsay--selfish, self-centered, whiny, manipulative...the list goes on in the Why Lindsay Must Go thread.

I honestly don't have anything on Flack or Hawkes. And the things listed above--aside from the ones for Lindsay--really just make them more well-rounded, human, believable characters, so it's not like I'd want them to change. It's nice to have a group that isn't perfect--they're real and believable as people and not just characters spouting off fancy science lingo.

 

[PerfectAnomaly]

Top41 said:
With the exception of Lindsay, it's mostly little things:

Mac can be so damn righteous sometimes. He rides his high horse and doesn't have a lot of perspective on himself when he's the one under fire. That said, I know he means well.

Stella's hardness rubbed me the wrong way in the first few eps of first season, but I'm glad they've found a balance with her, making her tough and still humane.

Danny has the worst judge of character of any human being on this planet. If you want to know who the killer is, just ask Danny who he thinks didn't do it, and you've got your man/woman/deadly house plant. Danny also seeks out unhealthy relationships, such as his desperate need for Mac's approval in s. 1 and his relationship with Lindsay.

Lindsay--selfish, self-centered, whiny, manipulative...the list goes on in the Why Lindsay Must Go thread.

I honestly don't have anything on Flack or Hawkes. And the things listed above--aside from the ones for Lindsay--really just make them more well-rounded, human, believable characters, so it's not like I'd want them to change. It's nice to have a group that isn't perfect--they're real and believable as people and not just characters spouting off fancy science lingo.

What she said! :lol:

Seriously, there are times I want to reach through the TV and strangle Mac because of his hypocrisy, self-righteousness and inability to see shades of grey. But I love that about the character. Gary Sinese plays it perfectly and it's fun when you get so into a character that you have a strong reaction to their behavior.

There were times in the past when Danny's "everyone is out to get me" complex was irritating as hell. But again, Carmine played it well. I can also see how some people would find him whiny and childish in an annoying way. I happen to think the way Carmine plays it comes off as endearing rather than annoying, but I can see how the opposite would be true for others.

With Stella there was the whole debaucle of "All Access," where I think she was really OOC. But Melina did a fantastic job with a crap story line. I also wanted to scream at her a few times during the Drew thing, but again, Melina was good even if I thought the story made her act OOC at times.

This season Flack has been Mr. Cranky Pants to an extreme and I don't really get why. It annoys me that we haven't been given any context for his behavior. Eddie does it well, though.

ETA: It's also annoying that Flack is Mr. I'm A Homicide Dective Who Is Also A Member Of The SWAT Team Who Is Also The Leader Of The Biggest Drug Bust In The History Of NYC Super!Cop Who Can Survive Anything Without Missing A Beat. :lol:

I know this is supposed to be about things that bug, but I can't help saying that I love Sid and Adam just the way they are.

I love Hawkes and think he plays Mr. I Was A Child Prodigy Mr. Smarty Pants wonderfully. He doesn't come off as smug or arrogant because of his intelligence. The only complaint I have about Hawkes is that we don't see enough of him, and what we do get is mostly processing scenes; and that has nothing to do with the character.

I also would've liked to see Hawkes be there for Danny after CP, since he was the one who saw Danny's reaction and had to drag the man out of the morgue. I think it would have been a nice extension of their interaction in "The Deep." But again, that's story line, not character.

 

[MacsLady]

Here are mine:

Mac.


1.Can be hypocritical – Clay Dobson episodes
2. Can be a bit rigid in enforcing rules – On the Job, Grand Murder at Central Station
3. Needs to learn to trust his and others’ guts more, not just evidence.
4. Inability to see shades of grey when it comes to the law.



Stella.
1. Her hardness in the early eps of s1. Thank God they balanced that out later on and made her more human in the later eps of s1 onwards.
2. BAD taste in men. Especially in the case of Drew.
3. Sometimes she dresses too revealingly for work. It’s more a foible than a fault, but it seemed like in s3 she had her boobs hanging out in nearly every ep.


Danny.

1. Tends to seek out people who hurt him in relationships, like Lindsey and Louie

2. Can be whiny and over-emotional. I do like that he’s openly emotional, but it’s too much sometimes. S1 in particular – OTJ for example, and Dancing with the Fishes in s2. I don't find him childish though, and he's not as whiny as Lindsey is.

3. Sometimes seeks out abuse – like in Crime and Misdemeanor. I mean, in one way I liked that he went with his gut, but what did he expect Mac to do? He must have known Mac’d find out.

4. Calls Lindsey Montana for far too long.

5. Can be dense when it comes to recognizing suspects – Buzzkill’s a good e.g. Mac may have a certain blindness in relation to grey areas in the law, but Danny often seems to have a blindness for the guilty party. Like someone said, whoever Danny thinks DIDN'T do it probably did.



Flack.

1.Seems to have a bit of a chip on his shoulder which affects his relationship with Mac in particular. Mac was not the only one at fault in Consequences. I wonder if this comes from Flack’s father being a top cop, and Flack feeling he needs to prove himself as a cop. He must have had to endure teasing/hostility from other cops because of his dad’s fame. Seems overly cranky sometimes.

2. Too snarky sometimes. I do like his snarkiness, but find it a bit excessive and constant.

3. Occasionally jumps on the evidence bandwagon too soon. In both ‘Night Mother’ and ‘Sweet 16’ he assumed because the evidence against Ophelia and the kid respectively was strong they were guilty. Unlike Mac and the rest of the team, he doesn’t always realize that evidence can be put in contexts. Just because there is a victim’s blood on something that belongs to a suspect and that suspect has access to the murder weapon doesn’t automatically make that suspect the guilty party. HOWEVER Flack is a REGULAR DETECTIVE and NOT a CSI, so he doesn’t have the training they do. He’s not trained to collect and analyze evidence. So it’s more a foible than a fault.

Lindsey.
1. Whiny
2. Self-absorbed
3. Treats lovely Danny badly.
4. I don't like her hair in s4.
5. Smug
6. I really, really don't like that scene in Oedipus Hex (I think) when she says she hates giving bad news to mothers but can give it to fathers all day long. It sounds like she thinks fathers' grief/pain is less important than a mothers'.


As for Sid, Hawkes and Adam, I feel I don’t know enough about their characters to notice anything.

I love all the characters (except Lindsay) despite and because of their flaws. Danny's and Mac's flaws in particular are an integral and fascinating part of their characters. And like my signature-quote says, people are flawed. I can sit here and list my best friends' and familiy's flaws (my sister's especially) and mine too, but that doesn't mean I don't love 'em all to bits. It's the same with the NY cast, and I commend the writers for making their characters (again Danny and Mac are great examples) flawed and human, although sometimes the characters' flaws (for e.g. Stella's bad taste in men) are a result of their writing. It makes them human and interesting. Every character has many good qualities too. Even Lindsay has a few.

 

[Faylinn]

I love all the characters (except Lindsay) despite and because of their flaws.

I'm the same way. Reading what y'all have said so far, I haven't seen a single thing I disagree with--I'm less accepting of ridiculous flaws in writing, but I think the intentional character flaws are good for the majority of the cast. They work for the personality, they fit with the storylines, they have realistic consequences and reactions from the other characters (Flack and Mac butting heads was nice, Aiden trying to rein Danny in in the episode with the gypsy cab driver was nice, etc)--they flesh out the characters and make them more realistic.

Ultimately, the positives far outweigh the negatives for me, making the negatives far more forgivable. Is that the case for y'all?

Top41 said:
I honestly don't have anything on Flack or Hawkes.

Neither do I. I was thinking about it the other day, and we really don't have much of anything to say about Hawkes (or Sid or Adam, as MacsLady said), good or bad, simply because there's not much to them to begin with. With Sid or Adam, it's understandable since they're more minor characters and, in Adam's case, not even there every week. You're not going to get much in that case. But Hawkes and Flack are main characters in the credits, they've been there since the beginning, they're well-acted and well-written, and it's a shame that there isn't much to say about them. Flack's got a bit more to work with than Hawkes (and far more jobs, as PerfectAnomaly pointed out :lol, but anyway...

That's one of the aggravating things about a character like Hawkes--there are things I like, but not enough. It's not that I'm hoping for things I don't like, but...if a character is around enough, there will be something negative about them--and Hawkes just isn't given much. It's a damn shame.

MacsLady said:
I commend the writers for making their characters flawed and human, although sometimes the characters' flaws are a result of their writing. It makes them human and interesting. Every character has many good qualities too. Even Lindsay has a few.

Exactly. Everybody has good and bad things about them, but that doesn't automatically make them a detriment or a bad character--personally, when I weigh the pros and cons against each other and come up with more cons for a character, then it becomes a problem. A few bad things aren't enough to ruin a great character for me, but alternately (for me at least), even a few good things can't redeem a crap character.

Anyway, I'm rambling. What other flaws do you guys see with these characters? Is there anything that makes them 'human' that you would absolutely love to see them change anyway? Or is there a character you love to hate? (I'm not sure NY has any characters which would commonly be thought of that way, aside from maybe Sinclair or Gerrard, but I'm curious. ) Are any of the characters irredeemable for you (other than Lindsay since we have a thread that goes into that), regardless of the good qualities they have to balance their bad qualities?

 

[Top41]

Faylinn said:
Ultimately, the positives far outweigh the negatives for me, making the negatives far more forgivable. Is that the case for y'all?

Definitely. Sometimes they make me love them more, as is the case with Danny.

Top41 said:
I honestly don't have anything on Flack or Hawkes.

Neither do I. I was thinking about it the other day, and we really don't have much of anything to say about Hawkes (or Sid or Adam, as MacsLady said), good or bad, simply because there's not much to them to begin with. With Sid or Adam, it's understandable since they're more minor characters and, in Adam's case, not even there every week. You're not going to get much in that case. But Hawkes and Flack are main characters in the credits, they've been there since the beginning, they're well-acted and well-written, and it's a shame that there isn't much to say about them.

I do need to qualify that with Flack, it's not that I don't feel we don't know enough about him, but that I just pretty much love the man all around. He's just awesome. I guess he can be a little 'black and white' sometimes, but his loyalty to those he loves is unwavering and that's pretty amazing. Maybe he can be a little blind when it comes to Danny sometimes--really, Danny was being a brat in "On the Job" and Flack just kept patiently reasoning with him instead of telling him to grow the hell up--but it's hard to blame him for that.

MacsLady said:
I commend the writers for making their characters flawed and human, although sometimes the characters' flaws are a result of their writing. It makes them human and interesting. Every character has many good qualities too. Even Lindsay has a few.

Exactly. Everybody has good and bad things about them, but that doesn't automatically make them a detriment or a bad character--personally, when I weigh the pros and cons against each other and come up with more cons for a character, then it becomes a problem. A few bad things aren't enough to ruin a great character for me, but alternately (for me at least), even a few good things can't redeem a crap character.

Exactly. Their flaws make them more interesting and more human, and I wouldn't want to not see that side of them. But yeah, on the flipside, the fact that Lindsay was bubbly when she shot the bow with Mac two seasons ago isn't enough to redeem the massive self-involvement we see from her on an almost weekly basis.

Anyway, I'm rambling. What other flaws do you guys see with these characters? Is there anything that makes them 'human' that you would absolutely love to see them change anyway? Or is there a character you love to hate? (I'm not sure NY has any characters which would commonly be thought of that way, aside from maybe Sinclair or Gerrard, but I'm curious. ) Are any of the characters irredeemable for you (other than Lindsay since we have a thread that goes into that), regardless of the good qualities they have to balance their bad qualities?

No, really it's just Lindsay. :lol: Sometimes I wish Mac would get off his high horse--I'd love to hear Stella or Danny say that to him--but I think it's part of what makes him who he is. And unless they turn Lindsay into a psycho, I don't think she'll be a character we love to hate. Maybe Kendall has potential there? :lol:

 

[CSINEWYORK000]

Here we go..........


MAC: The Boss. The Law.

Personally, I like the fact that he keeps it professional ( meaning not getting emotionally involved),His has only one concern - doing his job - whatever it takes - his flaw as far as I can see is his stubbornness .

STELLA: Never understood her. I'll join in on the comments of the people above.

Danny – “Dennis the Menace” that is his nickname from now on. Looking for trouble – call Danny Messer 555 -9017 . Ok, jokes aside. Clearly, we can see where Danny stands among his team mates. Emotional, energetic, often misunderstood. His big flaw – He’s the youngest on the team, and like most “younger” kids in the family – he gets away with a lot.

Hawkes : Intelligent. Skilled. However, he often comes across as the “grey mouse”.
I agree with the fact that we know very little about him. However, Hawkes himself doesn’t seem to make effort to let others to get to know him.


As for Flack - despite of his lack thereof........I find him quite amusing. (facial expressions, wry sense of humour - priceless :lolHe kinda reminds me of Mac - firm, very by the rules kinda guy - with several exception of course.

And last but not least – Sid Although we don’t know this character – but we know this
He’s awkward & funny.

Lindsey – I’m not going to bother to comment I think we all said plenty about her as is.
Except for – she’s not the person you wanna lean on when youre in trouble.

 

[Kam]

MacsLady said:
3. Needs to learn to trust his and others’ guts more, not just evidence.

Except Danny's.

It's starting to get to me, that Danny constantly fingers the bad guy as the good guy.

Just once I'd like him to finger the bad guy.

Then no one would believe him, and he could all smug when the evidence backed him up.


All you'd see in comment to that episode was, well I thought it was Mr.X at first but than Danny said he did too and when was the last time he was right?

 

[roximonoxide]

Kam said:

MacsLady said:
3. Needs to learn to trust his and others’ guts more, not just evidence.

Except Danny's.

It's starting to get to me, that Danny constantly fingers the bad guy as the good guy.

Just once I'd like him to finger the bad guy.

Then no one would believe him, and he could all smug when the evidence backed him up.


All you'd see in comment to that episode was, well I thought it was Mr.X at first but than Danny said he did too and when was the last time he was right?

While I totally agree, Danny really has a problem in sizing people up I think it's done pretty interestingly. I mean he's so often described as coming from "a family under surveillance" that it seems to have screwed him up something fierce. Children grow up inherently thinking their parents and family behave normally, whether or not thats actually the case and don't start to learn otherwise until they're actively engaging with people who behave in ways they're unfamiliar with. I can't help but think if that's where Danny's confusion between good and bad people comes from.

If people engaging in socially unacceptable behavior is what he grew up with, he's likely been grappling with just what is right and wrong for a long, long time. While, I would very much like to see him make some progress with this, and figure things out I think it's pretty interesting to have a criminalist who can sympathize with a criminal even in instances where that's not such an easy thing to do.

 

[Faylinn]

Yeah, his ability to sympathize with the criminals sometimes is interesting--he clearly doesn't see the world in black and white because he grew up surrounded by shades of grey. And on some level, he probably searches for those shades of grey in the people they arrest every day--to preserve his faith in humanity, perhaps? Hmm, very interesting.

See, flaws can make them more interesting if they're done to good effect and not all willy-nilly and just annoying.

Kam said:
It's starting to get to me, that Danny constantly fingers the bad guy as the good guy.

Just once I'd like him to finger the bad guy.

Then no one would believe him, and he could all smug when the evidence backed him up.


All you'd see in comment to that episode was, well I thought it was Mr.X at first but than Danny said he did too and when was the last time he was right?

:lol: That would be funny. Flack and Hawkes could have made a bet and you'd see Flack hand over his money and Danny would get miffed like "You didn't believe me?"

Seriously, though, I think it would be interesting if Danny's bad judgment of guilt and innocence caused a problem--like, he thought so-and-so was innocent and let them go, and then he/she took someone hostage and they had to get the person to safety. Poor Danny, but it would be interesting to watch--and an interesting way to incorporate a known flaw into the storyline to create excitement.

 

[Top41]

Faylinn said:
Yeah, his ability to sympathize with the criminals sometimes is interesting--he clearly doesn't see the world in black and white because he grew up surrounded by shades of grey. And on some level, he probably searches for those shades of grey in the people they arrest every day--to preserve his faith in humanity, perhaps? Hmm, very interesting.

Danny's empathy is definitely one of my favorite things about him. His compassion and sweetness is one of the unique, interesting things about the character.

Seriously, though, I think it would be interesting if Danny's bad judgment of guilt and innocence caused a problem--like, he thought so-and-so was innocent and let them go, and then he/she took someone hostage and they had to get the person to safety. Poor Danny, but it would be interesting to watch--and an interesting way to incorporate a known flaw into the storyline to create excitement.

With Danny's luck, he'd be the one taken hostage. And Flack would have to save him. Again. :lol:

Danny's propensity for getting into to trouble, whether it be from reckless behavior or pushing the big red button (never push the big red button! Ever!!!) could be called a character flaw, but it brings the drama so I really do love that about him, too.

 

[MacsLady]

I'd like it if Stella told Mac off when he is hypocritical or talked to him about his black and white view of justice.
I think it would be funny if Mac said to her to stop having her boobs hanging out all the time. :lol: I mean, I know Melina's a beautiful woman, but the sometimes Stella's dress habits do seem inappropriate. She works in a lab! Ages ago on some episode thread, I'm sure someone wrote that they've seen hookers more covered up. :lol: I suppose the way she dresses is supposed to show that she's a woman who's confident in her body and looks, but still, the endless very low cut tops just get irritating after while. Hello, TPTB, we have enough of the revealing dressing with Cath in Vegas.
I'd like to see Flack in a situation where he shows some other emotion than snarkiness - like those scenes he has with Danny in OTJ and Comes Around. I love his snarkiness, but Gentle!Sweet!Flack is very nice too.
I would like to seem Danny get the right guy, just once, too. And I really want him to stop calling Lindsey Montana. Yes, Danny, we KNOW where she's from.
As for Lindsey, I actually do like her interaction with Mac in scenes like the bow one in Stuck on You, so if they focused more on her interactions with Mac/Stella I wouldn't mind her so much.
And I want Kendall to be hit on the head by a crapsicle. I HATE KENDALL! And honestly it's not JUST 'cause she's with Adam.
I'd like Adam and Hawkes and even Sid to be developed more so we can see their flaws too. Hawkes especially needs more development. So maybe TPTB could keep Lindsey doing lab stuff and have some character development for Hawkes. Another 'Raising Shane' or 'Mrs Azrael' type ep would be wondeful.

 

[Faylinn]

And I want Kendall to be hit on the head by a crapsicle.

Aww, poor Kendall. :lol: Hopefully if they bring her back next season, she'll be in enough episodes to make more of an impact. At this point she's really just the (typical) hot blonde with a bit of a snobby attitude that leads our main lab tech around on a leash. Having him signed as a series regular shouldn't come with a clause that he needs to become a kicked puppy too. But like I said, I'm hoping there's more to Kendall if Bess sticks around. If nothing changes, however, I'll probably end up giving her the thumbs-down as well. I'm trying to wait and see with that one. :lol:

 

[PerfectAnomaly]

One thing I forgot about and agree with is Stella's wardrobe. I don't know how I could forget about it since her girls are always on display. I know that on a TV show they're going to dress better/sexier/whateverier, but good lord, woman. One time she's gonna have to chase a perp and she's gonna pop out of her shirt.

Dear Wardrobe Dept.:
Please to be noting that it is possible to be sexy without having your boobs on display for the world. In fact, sometimes being subtle is more sexy.
Love,
PA


I'd love to see Danny identify who the criminal is, too - just once is all I need. Bonus points if there's a joke about it involved.

And Kendall. Sigh. I had a really negative reaction to her from the get go, and not in the good "I'm Going To Love To Hate You" way. She was not as annoying in her second appearance, but I still really disliked her. See Fay's post for reasons. I'm afraid she's at the bottom of the ninth with two strikes. One more and she's gonna be benched along side Lindsay.

 

[Persona]

I mentioned this in another thread, but Peyton! What was her purpose, exactly? They basically traded in Jane (because apparently British women are all the same) only to bring Peyton in to act as chemistry-less relationship for Mac.

Hawkes. Now, for the most part I like Hawkes. However, during the earlier seasons he was always used as sort of a 'dues-ex-machina' type character. Although they've toned it down over the past season, I'd like to see more characterization cracks for Hawkes.

Drew, Shane, etc, all pointless.

My issue with Adam is all pretty much actor-related.

Lindsey is self-explainatory in the 'Why Lindsey REALLY must go' thread.

That's all I can think of now.