Humans to decipher the DNA of God and clone another Christ

Discussion in 'Forensic Science' started by Desert_Reseacher, Mar 6, 2006.

  1. allmaple

    allmaple Judge

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    Re: Humans to decipher the DNA of God and clone another Chri

    woops, sorry, they need the egg from a woman but they take the nucleus out, so theres no genetic material from the donor woman. the nucleus they take out of the organism to be cloned acts like a newly formed nucleus after fertilization when plaeced in the egg and exposed to the proper chemical components
    and i just want to state this again, the shroud of turin has been dated to be only 350 years old, and the face was most likely painted on. just an other reason why cloning the blood and claiming it is jesus is a waste
     
  2. Desert_Reseacher

    Desert_Reseacher Lab Technician

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    Re: Humans to decipher the DNA of God and clone another Chri

    Okay, a lot of commments here, and I can't respond to all of them. (I've been super busy, and have run into some trouble) But what I can do is do my best to cover what I can that you guys brought up here...

    First off, any questions referring to cloning, SNCT, vector cloning, etc, please see my previous posts from last year on all that, it will explain them better then for me to rewrite everything all over again (OY!)

    Second, I respect your views Roka, and I am fully aware how the Muslims believe, having studied your religion in school, and also researching on my own (is there anything I don't research??? Yes...Madonna, Britney Spears, Jessica Simpson, etc. etc. etc.! :p :lol: pardon me whilst I puke...!) But although the Muslims believe this, they are the only faith (outside of Catholicism) that believes that Mary (the mother of Jesus) was born pure and without sin--interesting, no?
    Muslim faithful's affection and devotion for Mary is reflected in the pilgrimages they undertake to Marian shrines, especially Fatima, and in the fact that many Muslim women are called Mary. According to the Koran, "an angel, by order of God, announced to Mary that she would give birth to a most pure son, a message that disturbed her. She gave birth under a palm tree that nourished her miraculously. She was a virgin and pure. She safeguarded her virginity and God infused his Spirit in her, making her and her son a sign for creatures."

    In the Koran it is stated that Mary 'is one of the devoted women and is a saint. She is preferred, purified and chosen by God over all the women of creation.'

    In the Koran, Mary has a decided Christological function, underlined by the prevailing designation of Jesus as 'son of Mary.' Biographical and spiritual elements of the Koran on Mary differ from Christian tradition, however.

    Muslim Mariology is irremediably conditioned by the Koran's explicit denial of the divinity of Jesus Christ.

    BUT! How marvelous though the Muslim faith focuses on the purity, sanctity and saintliness of MARY. (An anomaly of sorts that will soon be revealed in time!) On the figure of Mary there are common points of convergence and there are also too divergent points between Christians and Muslims.

    I think it's important to see that although the Muslim faith has at their center, a core belief system that can be summed up in one word: "submission" which is the literal translation of the word "Islam." Mary was in perfect "submission" to God long before the religion of Islam ever came about--interesting. There is a reason for that.

    I won't go any further on that subject but will jump to the subject of the Shroud of Turin...which is third and last for me to mention here, and having stood 5 feet away from it, and saw it up close and backlit, I knew from my photographic background and major from two colleges exactly what I was looking at. And I have accumulated research on the subject for several years...

    Let's cut to the chase, shall we? The shroud is a length of linen with an image of a strong tall bearded man who looks very much like older paintings of Jesus (before artists began to modify them). It's a NEGATIVE. Only when the camera was invented in the 19th century did the details of its features become clear. While scientists debate a bunch of technicalities, an overwhelming fact stands out: No one can explain how the negative image got on a piece of cloth in the first place. Even with modern technology, it would be impossible to inflect such an image (in the NEGATIVE STATE) on imperfect fabric in a way that displayed no use of pigments or any type of artistic substance and left no distortion.

    You could not do the image with a laser without scientists detecting the technique. You couldn't do it any known way. The image is just there. Only a single layer of fibers is affected in a way no one can discern. That overwhelming fact -- that no one in the world can explain the technique used to form the image -- is enough for most people.

    But let's take it a step further...even if there was a way of inflecting the image in the way it was inflected, how could anyone have done it in a NEGATIVE, especially back in the Middle Ages??? Those who dispute the Shroud would have us believe that back in medieval times someone forged this image and magically was able to do so in a way that anticipated the later invention (six hundred years later) of the camera. It is not a very convincing argument. They base such views on so-called radiocarbon dating (some know it as "carbon dating") that they say places the shroud's age in the Middle Ages, making it only 600 years or so old and not 2,000 and thus "proving" it could not have been what many claim, the burial cloth of Jesus.

    The PROBLEM with the carbon dating, however, is that the shroud had been through two fires up to that point in its history, one of which scorched the linen itself. When something is in a fire it picks up carbon residues that skew radiocarbon dating. And radiocarbon dating is suspect to begin with. Scientists throw out a lot of dates for everything, but there are numerous cases where such dating, at least with ancient fossils, has been off by thousands of years.

    Incredible are other tests that confirm authenticity by revealing that there are spores and pollen in the shroud, as well as images, that come from flowers and plants that are only found only in Israel (despite skeptical claims that it was forged in Europe) and that furthermore only come from the vicinity of Jerusalem!!! The pollen of one plant, Zygophyllum dumosum, was especially significant because its northernmost extent is in the area of Jerusalem. In all more than two dozen of the species whose imprints were found on the shroud have been correlated with plants listed in Israel.

    The scientist/botanist, Israeli Avinoam Danin of Hebrew University who examined the Shroud stated, "We discovered that there is one square of ten kilometers to a side that contains 70 percent of the species where we were seeking -- and is located midway between Jerusalem and Jericho...Another check determined that five of the five-kilometer-sided squares containing 27 of the 28 species are in the Jerusalem area."

    Scientists scrutinizing the shroud are amazed at the precision of its detail, the way the wounds correspond exactly with the wounds of Christ, the indications of actual blood (type AB), the precision of how the bones were structured and the blood flowed, the exact portrayal of how a body would be after crucifixion, the spots indicating where the crown of thorns were, the marks on the back that precisely resemble what would happen with the type of implement used back then to scourge, and even the fact the computer-enhanced images of the eyes on the Shroud show they had been covered (as was the custom) with coins -- coins found to have the image of a ruler who reigned at that time--the 1st century!

    To sum up, scientists analyzing the Shroud for yrs, have found this:

    --The cloth, the matierial itself has been found to be from the time of Christ. (Los Alamos Scientist Proves the 1988 Carbon-14 Dating of the Shroud of Turin Used Invalid Rewoven Sample--I have this article if anyone is interested. Excerpt: "Pyrolysis-mass-spectrometry results from the sample area coupled with microscopic and microchemical observations prove that the radiocarbon sample was not part of the original cloth of the Shroud of Turin which is currently housed at The Turin Cathedral in Italy," says chemist Raymond Rogers of Los Alamos.)

    --It cannot be a forgery due to the negative imprint printed onto the Shroud, but when photographed, and observing the negative, the image is postive on the negative! This cannot be replicated or fabricated in ancient times.

    --The pollen on the cloth dates back to the time of Christ.

    --The coins laid upon the eyes on the image using computer spectral enhancement date back to the time of Christ.

    Now you can be a naysayer, and say "NO WAY!" or "I don't believe any of this!" "God doesn't exist!" or "Jesus was not the Son of God" or the ole standby, "GIMME-A-GRAVY-SUCKIN'-BREAK!" (which I say when I get p.o.ed! :lol:) But as Gil Grissom always says, "THE EVIDENCE NEVER LIES."

    I have an extensive scientific research file on the Shroud, and can submit the facts for the basis of this discussion if anyone is so inclined to want to debate it. But let me say this first--scientists from AROUND THE WORD, that were atheists, chrisitians, jews, etc. etc. have analyized, researched and did more expriments on this artifact then any other artifact in ancient history, and their conclusions are the same--it is not a forgery, and cannot be replicated, and dates back to the time of Christ. We can debate this until pigs fly or cows come home, but the plain and simple facts are these sceintists know more about this then you guys do. And I for one will follow the findings of these good scientists over any of your comments that are not backed up with research and facts!!

    Please, you may have emotions relating to this subject--that's all fine--and I'm okay with that. But let's stick to the facts science has found out on the Shroud okay?
    Not your emotions or feelings on this matter.

    And the post in the beginning I placed was stemming towards this:
    Can science though, take the DNA found on the Shroud (say in the type AB blood found all throughout the image) and do vector cloning or another form of cloning on it? Grissom, in the last episode said this perfectly, "Everybody learns from science. It all depends on how you use the knowledge."

    The Shroud of Turin is house in a protected Cathedral in Turin (Torino) Italy, under lock and key in the protection of the Catholic Church, safeguarding the relic. I myself, do not think that "renegade-loose-cannon" type scientists will be given a chance to try. The Church will not permit them to do so.

    So no, I do believe this bizarre experiment will not happen.

    (I hope I stepped on no ones toes here!
    I would be more then happy to discuss and share more of the scientific facts on this artifact--but only the facts.
    Again I see I wrote a book on this site! Sorry!)
     
  3. allmaple

    allmaple Judge

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    Re: Humans to decipher the DNA of God and clone another Chri

    the articles i found about the shroud tell a different story then what you are. the main one is this: http://skepdic.com/shroud.html with links to other articles at the bottom. it explains how the fires the shroud had been through do not effect carbon dating, as the samples are burned anyway to preform the test. there was also something about how they specifically took samples away from the edges because they were aware of the repairs. it was dated to 1260-1390 by three different labs that had three different sections of cloth. the website also explains that the fires the cloth went through could alter the date a little, but not by 1200 years. i read that this date is consisten to when a bishop reported to the pope at the time that he had found a forger and the man confessed.
    traces of red ochre and vermilion paint, which could have produced the images, as there is no distortion that would happen if it truly were wrapped around a dead body.
    also, the 'blood stains' on the cloth are red, not black like they should be. and the traces of the ab blood could have been transferred from anyone who ever handled the cloth. also, everything i found said the stains failed all forensics tests for blood.
    i also found an article, http://www.petech.ac.za/shroud/nature.htm , explaining how, with medieval knowledge and technology, the image could have been produced.
    i found one website that said the weave pattern is consisten wit the time of jesus, and an other website that says it is consistent with patterns from much later.
    ive actually found it interesting looking this stuff up. ive found that for everything on site says, an other site will say the opposite. but i have to say, from a scientific point of view, there is more evidence that it is indeed a fake.
    now i dont doubt that jesus most likely existed, but with so much research that has been done to doubt the authenticity of the shroud, people still try to refuse that evidence. i dont know, if you want to believe its real then go ahead. i for one dont think it is, but then again its not important to me if it is or isnt.
     
  4. cfar

    cfar Pathologist

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    Re: Humans to decipher the DNA of God and clone another Chri

    I was wondering about the veracity of these experiments for jus this reason. The Church has allowed extensive testing on the shroud in attempts to verify its authenticity, but there is no way She would allow attempts to make a clone based on any blood which may be on the shroud. Not only would it be horribly sacreligious, it would involve cloning, which the Church has repeatedly condemned.

    If the Chuch isn't going to willingly give access to the scientists who would want to attempt this (which it's safe to say She wouldn't), how would they get the blood to clone?
     
  5. Roka4csi

    Roka4csi Coroner

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    Re: Humans to decipher the DNA of God and clone another Chri

    allmaple thanks for that. I finally figured out what you meant after I re-read your post that night. It seems clearer now, but I'm still not convinced it could be used against a messenger of God.
    Okay apparently it looked like something emotional. But that's not the case. I think we are all concerned with the scientific part of it. What you said, Desert still doesnt prove that it is really that of Jesus Christs. And I only mentioned my beliefs to stress on the fact that based on what I believe in, he was never killed nor beaten up the way that the Christians see it. Do you understand my point? That to me it is already impossible for anyone to come and say they found his shroud or whatever. And if scientific research has already proven that it is probably from 1260... now I'm not saying these scientists or the labs are infallible. We all know science can harm as well as it can heal. But I'm saying that what is the proof that this really belonged to him? I'm not just speaking about it being something that belonged to Jesus, I would do the same if a Muslim Shiia handed me a piece of cloth and said it belonged to Imam Ali! I would ask them what's the proof that it did. You can't behead someone for that kind of question!
    You mentioned the paintings, but how do we know he even looks the way he does in the paintings? And even so, wouldn't it be easy to make a piece of cloth and make sure the blood is at the same spots as mentioned in the Bible? See, I'm a strong believer in God... and that is why I have to question when people start talking about cloning one of his messengers! It doesn't seem logical to me. If you believe in God, you wouldn't be concerned about his messengers being cloned. The anti-Christ already exists, people. Its George Bush :lol:
     
  6. Desert_Reseacher

    Desert_Reseacher Lab Technician

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    Re: Humans to decipher the DNA of God and clone another Chri

    Hey Roka,
    (My eyes are going buggy all the time with your avatar always flashing at me! :lol: I have to look away and blink a few times and get back to where I'm at.)
    I understand your POV. (Point of View) on the Iman and so forth, makes logical sense.

    And allmaple, there are a pluthora of sites refuting the Shroud, and for every scientist who says it's authentic, there is one that says it's not. That's par for the course not only for the shroud but for numerous other things in science thoughout the ages, and not just artifacts, but concepts too. Even Stephen Hawkings (the greatest scientific mind alive today on earth) has had to backpeddle on his latest theory on black holes in quantum physics.

    In Zenit News out of Rome an article I kept it stated:
    "The Shroud of Turin has bloodstains on its reverse side, indicating that the image of the man it bears was not copied, a new study indicates. The shroud, widely believed to have been the burial cloth of Jesus, was subjected to new scanning techniques..and results of the tests were first scrutinized by a symposium of scientists...In 1534, two years after a fire damaged the shroud, Poor Clare nuns added a linen lining to the cloth to mend the damage. That allowed only one side of the relic to be seen. The recent examination, carried out with a scanner, revealed bloodstains on the reverse side, indicating that the image was not copied. "This is a confirmation of the unfounded character of the hypothesis formulated in the past, according to which the image of the holy shroud was formed by combustion, namely, by the warming of an image wrapped in the cloth," explained Giuseppe Ghiberti, vice president of the Commission for the Exposition of the Shroud. Experiments which have reproduced this technique have always left traces on the reverse of the fabric -- something that does not happen in the case of the Shroud of Turin. Paolo Soardo of the Galileo Ferraris Italian Institute carried out the scanning of the reverse of the shroud, which no one had seen in more than 450 years. In the one-week study, done in the sacristy of the new cathedral, a flat scanner was introduced between the shroud and the linen lining. This made possible the photographing of the central band, and yielded the unique image..."

    I could add more, I have over 20 articles on it.
    But as I said before, for every one article you find with scientists lined up to say it's authentic, you will find another article to say it isn't.

    So I went to videos as well, doumentaries, I wanted to see the machines, the tests, the scientists, I wanted to get a feel for what all was done --and by the way tests were done by scientists, not by the Catholic Church. They allowed the Shroud to tested, that is all, and of course they still are the care-takers of it.

    And as I mentioned even the lab at Los Alamos, NM, even had the Shroud tested and said it was not a forgery. That is a pretty big lab for anyone to say they know nothing.

    Just a side note: I think the amazing thing is actually seeing it, and having a background in photography and photo history, as I did, it makes you understand just what you are seeing.

    I have to run to work soon...but want to answer a few PMs and check out some more on 9-11...I see Roka paid a visit there, ;) so I will buzz in to that post real quick.

    I will try to check back here this weekend.
     
  7. Roka4csi

    Roka4csi Coroner

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    Re: Humans to decipher the DNA of God and clone another Chri

    Ay Caramba. :lol: This stuff will never end. People are so eager to prove their strength that they take it to play with God's messengers. Bunch of insecure children is what I see here. :p

    If the shroud really was for Jesus, I really don't think you would need to worry either way. They may be able to mess with us, but they can't mess with God.

    It really is sickening. People will go to such ultimate heights to prove that they have power. God has more power over all of us, and whateevr comes, I think we need to be ready for it instead of sitting in corners wondering what to do next.
     
  8. Desert_Reseacher

    Desert_Reseacher Lab Technician

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    Re: Humans to decipher the DNA of God and clone another Chri

    Amen!
    <Desert looks around the lab scratching her head to see if she's sitting in a corner or not. :lol:>
     
  9. Roka4csi

    Roka4csi Coroner

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    Re: Humans to decipher the DNA of God and clone another Chri

    :lol: If you're in a corner, I'm joining the NWO.
    Just for fun. Plus I think I could help them clone a new evil dude. Take Hitler's hands, Sadam's legs, and Bush's nose. We'll have the perfect evil clone. Let's put that science to good use, shall we Gatsby?
     
  10. Desert_Reseacher

    Desert_Reseacher Lab Technician

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    Re: Humans to decipher the DNA of God and clone another Chri

    <Desert shivers!>

    A-la Dr. Frankenstein eh? ;)

    Maybe I should post that article I got from Popular Science last year on what's going on at Los Alamos-- Man making man-made life in the lab. :eek:

    I might post it in a new post here if there is anybody interested.
     
  11. Roka4csi

    Roka4csi Coroner

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    Re: Humans to decipher the DNA of God and clone another Chri

    Hey, I'm interested. Doin it Frankie style, huh NWO?! :mad:

    They really do think they can be God! Shame on them! :lol:
     
  12. Desert_Reseacher

    Desert_Reseacher Lab Technician

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    Re: Humans to decipher the DNA of God and clone another Chri

    Well that's one vote for the Los Alamos man-made life story.

    ;)
     
  13. Roka4csi

    Roka4csi Coroner

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    Re: Humans to decipher the DNA of God and clone another Chri

    Hey, no fair... I can't wait for the other votes :lol:

    Post it here then!
     
  14. ancienttomb

    ancienttomb CSI Level Three

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    Re: Humans to decipher the DNA of God and clone another Chri

    I know I'm a little late for this thread but don't you guys feel it's hilarious to clone God's DNA???

    Basically I'm a atheist but sometimes I'm also a agnostist, the truth is we don't have evidence to support "God's existence", and if "God" has DNA then he's in biological category, then he's not immotal, another weird thing: If he's omnipotent, why he couldn't created a brand-new person to save human but Using a 17-year-old-girl's belly?...Could this omnipotent God creat a rock heavy enough that he couldn't even move?

    Don't bash me....But if this God does exist..(well, then I'll go to hell for bashing him...whatever...), he could never have DNA ;)
     
  15. Desert_Reseacher

    Desert_Reseacher Lab Technician

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    Re: Humans to decipher the DNA of God and clone another Chri

    Good Grief Ancienttomb You quoted the whole article I posted!!! :eek: :eek: :eek: :lol: :lol: :lol: ;)

    My eyes are buggin here. I feel like I stepped into a Xerox machine and can't get out. :lol:

    Anyway, it tres difficile (french there) to explain to an agnostic-athiestic-ancienttomb (too many A's --see the xeroxing has rubbed off on moi! O-LA-LA! :eek: ) the concept of The Trinity, Jesus as the Second Person in the Trinity, and the Trinity as one God (Father, Son (Jesus) and Holy Spirit) and the three are one. St. Patrick of Ireland explained it best by holding up a THREE (not four) leaf clover and showed the pagan Ireland the concept of three in one: one clover but three seperate leafs on one stem, one plant. Capiche? (Italian there. ;))

    But enough of religion lesson 101 on Christianty, I only say this to explain: Why the Shroud and the connection to "God"
    so at least you get my drift on the article there.

    I need to leave and get a drink! :lol:
    <Desert turns and walks out of the lab, shutting door, not knowing when she will be back...but will try!>
     

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