Locker Room #17: Danny/Carmine: Our Utility Guy

I'm torn about the idea of Danny having possibly been sexually abused/mistreated. Yes, he does appear to view sex and his sexuality as a comodity, although I do think there is an emotional attachment to it. He doesn't have sex for the sake of sex itself. All of the people we've seen him get with or even come on to/flirt with (Lindsay, Rikki, Aiden, even) there was some sort of connection there.

With Lindsay, there was the months long pursuit after nearly a year of friendly, flirtatious banter. He kept trying to get her to open up to him on an emotional level, but she kept pushing him away all that time. She initiated all of the sexual stuff between them. The almost-kiss in "SOoH," the bet and drunken pool table sex in "Snow Day." Then, even in "Can You Hear Me Now" when she starts to joke about the condom spray, he backed off.

With Rikki, we know that he felt horrible about the whole situation. He'd spoken to her in the hall and interacted with Ruben quite a bit. She at the very least trusted him enough to leave her son in his care. That says something. As others have said, she seems to have initiated the sex with him, at least the first time. Second time....eh, he sorta did, she sorta did.

Aiden, while they never ever hooked up, there was a ton of flirtatious banter between them. However, they'd worked together for years and years, so there was a nice chemistry between them. The lines in "Hush" with the "Robospanker" thingy, the line at the end about "Wanna get something to eat, I'll drive, put you on the hood?" are just dripping with flirtatiousness. Although, It seems it was never more than that. They even mentioned it at the end of "Crimes and Misdemeanors" about that. Danny said something to the effect of "oooh, if you weren't someone I worked with......" To which she responded that she was out of his league.

All of that points to him using sex as an emotional comodity or a form of currency, if you will. If he can use it, he will, but not with a stranger and not to pay for it.

IMO, if he were sexually abused, chances are he'd be more hypersexual or even asexual. He's somewhat in between. I don't think he sees sex as an emotionless comodity, largely due to the remark in "Tanglewood" about him "having girlfriends for that."

However, here's something that no one has brought up, what if he was molested, and the person who did get at him was a woman/girl? That does fit, especially with the fact that Rikki and Lindsay initiated all of the sexual stuff that went on.

As far as the sexuality goes, God only knows what went on in the Tanglewood boys. Could Sonny Sassone had done something to Danny after that night? Possibly. He seems like the type that could do anything to assert dominance, including rape a teenage boy.

For that matter, God only knows what went on in the Messer household. It seems like it was an extremely dysfunctional family to put it mildly. No one really knows what his mother was like. For all we know, she could have slept around on his father, she may haveused sex as a way to please his father, or just could have put ideas in his head about sex and sexuality. She could have even possibly sexually abused him. That could support him being the way he is about not initiating.

Obviously, I agree about all of the not being able to stand disapproval and disappointment; as well as him having very low self esteem. He seems to be crushed when someone is unhappy with him. But, the worse you treat him, the more he comes running back. It IS almost as if he feels he doesn't deserve love/acceptance.

The only ones who could get through to him were Aiden, before she died, and Flack. Notice that Aiden was able to get through to him a bit more gently about seeing the psychologist/psychiatrist. Flack had to get nasty with him about bringing Rikki in. However, he never expressed doubt in him or put him down for it. It was just a simple, "This is what's gonna happen, or I'm gonna do what I gotta do!"

Mac, and Stella were never could get through to him, save for Mac in "RSRD," But that was when Danny's career and life were on the line. Lindsay sort of can, but she's nasty and manipulative about it, telling him what he feels, that he's too hard to love.

 

Sorry, I haven't read this thread in almost two weeks. So I might be dragging back some older stuff. I hope you'll forgive me.

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. When Lindsay first came, I saw it as Danny sort of picking up where he and Aiden left off--then suddenly, we're meant to see it as serious, I-want-to-be-with-you flirting? Why? What's the difference? What changed?

I think it's significant that Danny said 'It's a good thing you and I work together', or whatever it was he said to Aiden--and yet a few years later he's maybe/maybe-not dating Lindsay, someone he most definitely works with (a working relationship that can easily parallel his with Aiden)? Not only that, but it's an unqualified disaster, all things considered.

Thinking about it, I think it has a lot to do with the fact that Danny and Aiden had years to not only develop a relationship and a comfort zone--they also developed boundaries. They knew where to draw the line, and while they flirted, it wasn't an issue. Then Lindsay comes in and Danny jumps straight to the point he was at with Aiden when she worked there--they hadn't built up a relationship or comfort zone, and they certainly hadn't defined any boundaries. So she takes it seriously and he, therefore, sees her taking it seriously and responds.

Possibly?

Well, he certainly doesn't seem to seek out sex just for the gratification aspect of it. I think he'll use it to gratify other people, but for him--he wants (and is trying to get) an emotional connection first and foremost.

Maybe? It's kind of contradictory, but that might make sense if you're looking at it from the angle that he was abused. (Or am I not using Earth logic since I'm so sleepy? )

Well, he wants to please people he cares about/needs/wants to continue to care about him--he wants the emotional connection, and he'll use sex when he needs to in order to get that, if that's what they want. (I have no idea if I'm making sense or being repetitive or what. :lol I think the fact that he waited a while to agree with Rikki that what they did wasn't the best idea supports the fact that he uses (or tries to use) sex to strengthen/keep the connection with other people--only when it was obvious that sex wasn't helping the connection with Rikki and in fact might be hurting things did he agree with what she'd said all along. Also, I definitely think the call to Lindsay in 4.19 supports the idea--he kept trying to talk to her, and when that didn't seem to be swaying her, he made (what I thought was obviously) a clear offer to have sex with her. 'Come over here and we'll talk about it,' or whatever it was he said? Mmhmm...

I think it can be somewhere in between. I don't parade around the fact that I was sexually abused, but for the sake of discussion, I'll use me as an example. I'm certainly not hypersexual, but I'm not asexual either. I want to form an emotional connection with someone before getting into a physical relationship, but I'm by no means totally against the idea of sex (or disinterested, I should say). I feel sexual attraction but not to an excessive extent--I consider myself 'normal', so to speak. The abuse might have affected how I view the actual act of sex, but it hasn't caused me to swing to either extreme as far as sexual attraction itself goes.

I think how a person responds to abuse is a purely individual situation--I don't use sex, but other people might. I think it's a combination of factors depending on the personality of the individual, not to mention the type of abuse and what kind of mental and physical effect it had on him/her, among other things...

I think that's a viable possibility. As you say, it fits with him letting the woman make the move, and it seems to me (not being an expert at all, by the way) that a woman might have been more manipulative emotionally and not just physically (or with threats, not that all abuse from men is violent or dependent on threats). I can see a woman getting to him, especially when he was an older child (but not quite a teenager, perhaps), and putting the idea in his head that 'this is what you have to do for a woman to love you'--particularly if he was at a stage where what he wanted/needed was love and non-sexual affection and, because of the abuse, would then see sex as a way to get what he really wanted/needed, even when he had moved into a stage where sexual affection and gratification became a bigger drive (for him, I mean--what I'm saying is that even though he'd gotten to the point where he wanted a physical relationship, he'd still view sex as a means to achieve an emotional connection--although I don't think he'd view it as an automatic emotional bond in and of itself)...

Or that he feels the only way to get love and acceptance is to 'earn' it by taking the abuse without complaint. I think if you combine the idea of sexual abuse (particularly from a woman, IMO) with the idea of perhaps his father being hard on him, etc--if he had it coming from all sides that he needed to buck up and take it and only then would he be loved...maybe he seeks that out in more than one way as an adult because the love of 'family' (not necessarily just his parents and siblings, I'm using this term to also include romantic relationships) is something he thinks you have to earn like that...

ETA: I think I killed the thread. Anyway, I edited to add a few little phrases and such. Also, I forgot to say last night that I wasn't trying to repeat anybody or steal anybody's argument, so to speak--so I hope it doesn't come across that way.

 

OK, my view is this: the Aiden thing was handled wrong if you ask me, I mean she and Danny had a close relationship, we've seen them working as a team numerous times, and even when NY was introduced in Miami, Danny worked with Aiden. They had a very close friendship with the occasional banter, and little flirting. Aiden always kept Danny at a safe distance, and frankly if you ask me, I believe that Danny didn't really want something romantic with Aiden, although he suggested a date, and was cut off pretty quick. Now, even after Lindsay entered the show, Danny and Aiden kept in touch, because we find out in Heroes that they had planns for dinner, a dinner which Aiden was supposed to cook, so it took place either at her or Danny's apartment. I think that when Lindsay came into the scene it was like well, fresh meat for Danny. First it started like a joke (the Montana thing annoyed me from the beginning, but there you go..) and then for some reason or another the whole thing degenerated into this romantic so-called-relationship. From where I am standing, I think that Danny had a closer relationship with Aiden, than with Lindsay.

You aree making perfect sense This was Danny from the beginning andd until now, he has put other people's needs on top of his own, and did the best that he could to make everyone around him happy. He did use sex when he tried to make the pain go away, and not for him especially but for Rikki, and that was all that it mattered at that moment.

 

I have to agree with you ,Fay
I also think that that is one of the reason why he sometimes is rebellious when someone actually cares for him without wanted something in return,like Flack often does.

And Aiden did in the past.

 

Yeah--he said he was making them both feel better, but I think it was more 'I feel better if you feel better' for Danny. As someone mentioned up-thread, he wouldn't have slept with her if he didn't think it was what she wanted. While I know some people thought Danny's behavior in 4.16 was reprehensible for various reasons, I really don't see why--he wasn't using her, he was essentially using himself for her benefit (which is bad in itself, of course). His motives were honest (perhaps innocent in a way) even if the actions aren't something everybody can agree with. It just doesn't seem skeevy to me, and I won't use a kinda-sorta-maybe relationship that was never clearly defined as a reason to say he was in any way skeevy--Danny might be a fuck-up, but I can't think of an example where he's ever been shown as an insensitive jerk-wad.

Maybe it's selective viewing, but I assume the best when it comes to him, until proven otherwise. If the writers expected me to view 4.16 as the ultimate betrayal of Lindsay, they failed in getting it across to me, I'm afraid. That's just not how I see Danny. My psychic abilities are, sadly, limited.

(Sorry if that seems off-topic, I wasn't trying to be.)

Hmm, maybe in a misguided attempt to 'correct' what he sees as incorrect behavior from them? Like, they're supposed to be mean, so by upsetting them, he's making them act the way he thinks they're supposed to act to begin with?...Hmm...

 

Hi there

Long time no see, just thought I'd drop by check up..........

WOW things are gettin' heavy here....you guys would be better

than any psychiatrist I know (LOL:lol maybe even Dr.Phil.


Anywayz, I hope we can go back to just kickin' back - taking it easy (lighter conversations)


Remember this.............???





Yeah, just a reminder. . . . . Take it easy...




Later Days

 

YES, thank you! It would only have been skeevy if it'd been confirmed he was in a relationship with Lindsay and that he had sex with Rikki for solely self-centered purposes. But one, after all this time, we still don't know if they were ever in a relationship (it seems Lindsay is intent on never getting involved with him again), and two, Danny himself said and showed it in episode 4x16 that it was an, "I feel better if you feel better," thing for him.

And yeah, one-time sex on a pool table does not count as a relationship. If sex was the determining factor for the establishment of a romantic, long-term relationship, then what does the multiple times of sex with Rikki mean then?

Totally second this. The fact they were attracted to each other and cared about each other and still successfully drew boundaries around each other and mutually agreed to never cross them was something I appreciated a lot. It's very rare to see something like that on primetime these days; the only other great example I can think of at the moment is the interaction between Morgan and Garcia from Criminal Minds. Boy, those two flirt like crazy but it never goes over the line and is always sweet and light and somehow remains very genuinely affectionate and deep. It's a shame when TPTB feels flirty interaction between two characters has to be pushed into ship territory. It's a high-risk decision and should it go bad, it always goes very bad and is next to impossible to fix without major retconning of events.

As for what might have happened if Aiden had stuck, there was the slight chance TPTB may have decided on Danny getting involved with her but ... I don't really see it. TPTB drew boundaries around Danny and Aiden from the start and that had been a smart thing to do. Like on Criminal Minds, apart from Morgan and Garcia flirting and Reid asking JJ out to see a game with him, the main cast have never gotten involved with each other. Criminal Minds stuck to the 'no office romance' rule, and so far, it's worked fantastically for it.

That ended up making her look the bad guy instead, and a self-entitled, assuming one at that.

Heh, makes you wonder what TPTB was going for then, eh? To me, the latter half of season four was possibly TPTB's endeavor to distance Lindsay from Danny so he didn't have to be her prop anymore (FINALLY!). Guess we'll see if that's the case in season five. I for one hope it is because it's high time Danny was his own person again, as well as Lindsay being her own person. Being another person's prop for years is unfair and too much!

 

OK. I will go too in the Criminal Minds comparison. I just saw an episode of season two, where we find out that Morgan was sexually abused by his football coach. And instantly my mind went straight to NY and Danny and I kind of made a comparison between Morgan's behavior and Danny's. Of course people react in different ways to this kind of happenings, but since I haven't put my two cents in to the sexual abuse conversation, I will do so now.

I don't necessarily believe that Danny was abused as a child or as a teenager, but most likely his behavior derived from the fact that he didn't recive much attention as a child. His parents were into the illegal stuff, his brother was a Tanglewood boy, and Danny who didn't feel like joining that world just felt left out. That is why his need of attention right now, whether he does so willingly or unwillingly. I also believe that his need to take care of others' feelings is derived from the same thing, because he tries to deal with people in an opposite way of how others treated him.

Like I said in the beginning, Morgan was sexually abused, and for you guys who watch Criminal Minds, you will see the obvious differences between Derek's behavior and Danny's (except for the obvious resemblance that both of them are stubborn, with a passion for justice, and always willing to break the rules in order to bring the bad guy to the law, and of course they are the hotties of both shows). Now, Derek is confident, is not so sensitive, he is determined, and he doesn't take the bad guy for the good one.

Danny more or less exhibits the behavior of an ignored child (more or less), he did try to get close to his brothr, and he admitted that his brother ignoring him has hurt him in the heart. Louie was not ignoring him, he was protecting him, but unfortunately this came ot to the light a bit too late. Danny was the odd component in the ecuation. I remember the episode when a guy tried to kill his brother, and Danny goes to the hospital to arrest him, and even though that guy was the guilty one he still allowed him to say goodbye to his brother.

Coming back to our business, yes I do agree that it is time that Lindsay didn't depend on Danny. I mean the man is such a complex charcater, look at us we are actually discussing whether he was abused or not, and my personal opinion is that Lindsay just kills the character, she just drains out the life out of him, and it's a damn shame. Yes, I have noticed that in season 4 they have tried to make the separation of the charctrs, and in the first partof the season by not interracting much, and in the end creating the triangle that in my view will only lead to saying goodbye to DL.

No way, Danny and Aiden had such a beautiful dynamic, which if they were to get involved it would have been destroyed. Danny and Aiden were good friends, and they maintained their relationship close after she got fired (remembers the dinner in Heroes). There is this tendancy to compare NY with Criminal Minds Yes, I do agree they have stuck at the no-romance thing and I think it was the best choice. Looking back at NY's season 1 where no one in the office was romantically involved, I would say that it was different and better.

I should stop now

 

I agree with Miss_Blue, I don't see Danny as a victim of sexual abuse. I do think the idea of him as someone who was ignored/neglected as a child is very plausible. Children who don't get enough attention play up alot as being shouted at is better than being ignore, so they start to equate people shouting and generally being angry at them with people showing them affection. I think this is what we see in Dannys relationship with Lindsay.

 

I am on the same wave as poppet and miss blue, I am not sure he was sexually abused, humilated sexually maybe (sassone being responsible)...

Abandonment i think maybe,

Dad is a lazy F**k orders him around (Mac and authority issues), Mum is out working all hours (neglected but still loves her) older brother joins a gang and when Danny wont join he is blown out by big bro.......

so skip 20 years , Ruben gets killed (people still see this as abandonment, maybe he gave Ruben alot of time because danny had a shitty dad).

When he thinks he is being abandoned by Lindsay/Rikki he tries to pull them back in , sex being the tool .............

 

I dont think I can see Danny being sexually abused either; although it is interesting to consider.

I have always assumed Danny's issues with authority and sex originated with his father. I could see Danny's mum using sex as a way to pacify his father, who I imagine as a drunk (with typical violence/abuse problems).... Hence Danny learned from an early age from his mum (who he was obviously close to) that sex could be used to make others happy and 'solve problems.'

 

The more I think about it, the more I see the idea of Danny having been sexually abused, by a woman, very possibly his mother.

Note that in "Run Silent Run Deep," Danny refers to him mother as "Mommy."

However, in "The Deep" where he's talking about drifting out into the shipping channel in his grandfather's old boat and having to be rescued by the Coast Guard, he said that his mother didn't speak to him for two weeks or something, but that was probably a good thing.

I know it could be reaching, but there's got to be some reason for that ambivalence there. Doesn't necessarily have to be that, and he certainly doesn't have to have processed it as abuse, but there's something odd about the relationship with his mother.