Death of an overacted character

Discussion in 'CSI: Miami' started by Gnarl, May 30, 2008.

  1. Clavo Cruz

    Clavo Cruz Victim

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    And in my opinion, David Caruso is an awesome actor, if a little bit older than usual ones (i mean, look at Calleigh and Ryan). Honestly, he has all the makings of a great actor, he just needs less parts in the actual show.

    From a convicted killer somewhere in Miami
    -Clavo Cruz
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2008
  2. Finch

    Finch Funnier in Enochian Super Moderator

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    Welcome to the Miami forum, Clavo_Cruz. Just a reminder that if you wish to add more to your posts, please utilize the 'edit' button next to the 'quote' button as opposed to double posting. Thanks. ;)
     
  3. Gnarl

    Gnarl Civilian

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    As to the point that 'he ain't dead yet', I agree. I was simply expressing my opinion (key words there) that the character really isn't carrying the show the way he should... then again, of the three CSIs, and this again is my opinion, I think Miami, while fun to watch, is dead last. I know why it's rated well: sex still sells. However, I want a more intellectual CSI when I watch, which is why LV will always be on top for me... that is, so long as it doesn't take cues from the other shows.

    While he may not be dead, they did show him in a pool of blood, which largely rules out a vest (the shot could've hit an unprotected part but...). Having said that, the way the writers have had Caine going in the last season, I was expecting him to bounce the bullet off of his chest and into his assailent... it really has gotten almost that bad. At the risk of posting in the wrong thread, the show definitely jumped the shark for me when he was set to beat up the guy who was working to trap child molesters: "... your resisting arrest" I mean, the character is just too duplicitous while being too much into enforcing the rules. For evidence of that last, refer to him firing Wolf... he really could've cut Wolf some slack by putting him on probation. Granted, it boggles when the CSIs who have so much experience in the trouble caused by not being fully forthcoming, are not themselves fully forthcoming when they get into trouble... and that's true for all of the CSIs.

    One more comment: while I do hold the writers more to blame than the actor, the actor is responsible for pushing back, imho, and stating that they are going a bit too far over the top. Basically, acting is, or should be, a symbiotic relationship. The writer creates the character, true, but, the writer is not 'living the role' like the actor does and once the character is launched, especially when it's successful, in the hands of an actor, it's entirely naive to think that the writer can get by without feedback from the person carrying the role. Thus, over time, the actor and the writer(s) really should be working together, at least on the details of the part... maybe not on the overall direction of the show/storyline.

    Thanks for the constructive replies folks... I wasn't looking for everyone to agree with me (as stated in my original post)... I was looking for a place to have my opinion heard.
     
  4. Bigdog

    Bigdog Dead on Arrival

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    Actually David Caruso's acting isn't bad at all. The person that takes the cake is Elizabeth Birkly (spelling?). I personally hate seeing her in scene's, I dunno but for some reason she just bugs the crap out of me. They could have used someone better but then again it's only a show.

    If they did everything on CSI: Miami as they did in CSI: NY and all the others, it would be no different then any of the others. Frankly, I don't like CSI:NY, I think it's a really plain show but then again it's my opinion as well. Each show has 1 person that could have been replaced by a better actor but David Caruso is definitely not one of them.

    I like the fact that he has went through this whole time without getting shot. I also like the fact that he acts kind of like a robot because that is his character and everybody acts differently. If you watch from Season one up to the last episode we all just seen, you will understand his behavior and how he got to that point. He has been through way to much. But they also don't go into his history really before he joined the Miami team. For all we know, he could have been a SEAL or something.

    Just to show a good actor, when he got shot, there are so many people on here wondering right now if he...
    1.) actually got shot

    2.) planed the shot

    we have no clue and because of his acting abilities we wont even know until next season. When he shows sadness or caring he does an excellent job at it, some actors out there could learn from him. They made him out to be bullet proof pretty much because when the time comes that he does get shot, it's going to put us all in shock and that is what makes great TV.

    In the episode that is called "Bunk", you will hear basically why he is the way he is. he talks about something to Alexx. He has a lot of drama, he has seen so much but at the same time feels extremely bad for the innocent, so he is really human if you watch closely. Now he is getting darker which makes perfect sense and I personally find it great for TV. We finally get to see everything getting shaken up.

    If you have a bullet that goes through armor and you are wearing a vest, you will definitely see a pool of blood. Although I didn't see a pool of blood because that part of the ground was already wet before he got shot. Everybody has a snaping point that will throw them over the edge, just remember that. He went through a world of crap before that child molester. You also have to put in everything from before that to really understand why he did what he did. If he was the perfect cop then this show would be lame and would be way to predictable.
     
  5. HnStetlerfan

    HnStetlerfan Pathologist

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    Amen to that.

    He kinda snapped in that one episode before he and Delko went to Rio. It was when he and Delko took Riaz out to a remote area and H came really, really close to just blowing him away. He shot right near his head when he was on the ground and the bullets ricocheyed dangerously. It was a precurser to what he finally ended up doing in All In. He wanted to kill Riaz in that one ep (sorry I don't know the title) but he managed to hold back because he trusted the Justice System to do its job. It didn't. So everything that's been happening in previous episodes has been leading up to what's going on now with the H character and what he did in All In. How he's acting now is definitely understandable, in my opinion.
     
  6. Della

    Della Police Officer

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    In my opinion, as far as I can see DC walks around with a whipped puppy-dog look on his face and a down turned mouth when he’s supposed to be emoting sadness, empathy, sympathy and so on – and the only reason you know it’s supposed to be either sadness, empathy, sympathy and so on is because of what the scene is conveying, and not the actor.

    ...And when the scene is ambiguous, that you’re not sure of what the character should be emoting, I’ve only been able to read condescension on his face, and often a patronising ‘You’re an idiot, I’m not, so listen to me.’

    I can also understand why some think that DC has played the same character in all of his films. I’d say that he was a pretty good actor in his younger days, particularly in ‘Kings of New York’, and John Kelly in NYPD Blue on TV, because the characters he played there were nothing like the Horatio Caine character. However when I look at Gold Coast, Deadlocked, and so on, I think I now have a pretty good handle on when DC has adlibbed a phrase in CSI Miami because I have heard the exact same phraseology in Gold Coast and so on.

    Um, and as for the twitching when Horatio had been shot – I’m afraid that, in my opinion, Rory Cochrane’s acting ability when Speedle was ‘dying’ blew DC’s acting ability when Horatio was ‘supposedly’ dying, out of the water. It was a far more believable death scene, not only because of Rory’s acting ability, but because there were no fancy shots, no corny twitching, you just got the core of the scene – the fear of dying, the man choking to death on his own blood, the bleeding out and the helplessness of a close friend not being able to do anything other than watch.

    For me Speedle’s death scene relied only on the ability of the actor to pull it off and in all honesty Rory did a fantastic job in doing just that. However, I felt that Horatio’s death scene relied mostly on how cool a shot would look, and/or how cool it would be to see Horatio twitching, and so on, rather than them showing the true impact of the scene – and in my opinion, the supposed ‘coolness’ of the scene translated to ‘corny’ for me.

    Don’t get me wrong though, I honestly believed in the Horatio character in the first three Seasons and I do think, more often than not, that DC played a huge part in conveying that believability, however, since there has been this overload of nothing but high-unbelievably shitey-Drama for the Horatio character, both the character and the actor has suffered really badly for it.

    ...Just my opinion...

    As for the Horatio Caine character – If the PTBs had returned at the beginning of this Season showing a further deterioration of the Horatio character, to the point where it would have been a bit more understandable as to why he was suddenly beating on a Paedophile and then executing a gang member, I wouldn’t be half as disappointed and annoyed at the PTBs as I am right now.

    As a side note: If we’re being honest here, there really is no maybe, might have, might not have or presumably, about him beating up the Paedophile because Horatio’s words of “You’re resisting arrest” clearly told the viewer exactly what Horatio was about to do.

    But anyway, no, they didn’t show a further deterioration of the character when they came back this Season, instead they showed the audience how Horatio was trying to initiate a connection with his team again, how he showed concern for them, and most importantly, how he still believed in the system as strongly as he did before because he was willing to, and did, march his son back to prison to continue to pay for the crimes he had committed... and so on and so on. We had all of that and more until all of a sudden we are left with a completely ambiguous scene of Horatio advancing on a Paedophile ready to beat the crap out of him.

    ...But not satisfied with that they then have Horatio executing a member of the Mala Noche gang, claiming that he was doing it under the pretext if it being Miami Justice.

    Yes, the Horatio character has been through a lot, but if you’re going to apply reality to a fictional situation, then in reality, in all probability, someone like Horatio would have committed suicide by now, because, in my opinion, up until this season Horatio had always been shown to be compassionate, passionate, emphathetic, sympathetic and any other positive ‘tic’ you want to associate with the character.

    But most of all, in my opinion, Horatio was also shown to have a high regard for life, whether it was for a victim’s life or a criminal’s. He would only shoot if being shot at, or that he had read the situation that if he didn’t shoot to kill then he would be dead himself – but that’s not how the execution of the gang member went down and that’s also not how his beating of the Paedophile went down either.

    Anyway, the way I viewed things was that Horatio had got his personal revenge the moment he killed Riaz. All of the foreshadowing leading up to that moment told the viewer that. Besides, it was the only reason he and Delko were in Brazil in the first place. But then, even if his killing Riaz hadn’t quashed the need for vengeance in him, then why did Horatio show a huge amount of remorse when he was forced to kill the guy at the end of the Rio episode? Was it for show, because Ray jnr was there, or was it because he actually felt remorse? Until recently I never questioned that scene, but now I am being forced to question nigh-on all of the scenes where Horatio has shown compassion and empathy and so on, because his actions of late are telling me that all of what I thought the character was never existed in the first place.

    ...And not only that, the horrible thing about all of this is that this crap that is now Horatio Caine, it’s also affecting the other characters around him.

    For instance, in the finale, they showed Calleigh being utterly complicit to Horatio’s need to hunt down Ron Saris, because she gave Horatio a list of names (plural – names not name) and pointed out the only name she knew Horatio would be interested in. And then she was shown to be perfectly happy with letting Horatio go do his hunting, even though there was no proof whatsoever that Ron saris was guilty of anything and that any one of the other names on that list could instead be guilty.

    That’s not the Calleigh I know and if Ryan is in on the set-up, then he too will be shown to be complicit to Horatio’s vigilante hunting. In fact anyone who is in on the set-up will shown to be complicit.

    This is why CSI Miami no longer holds any interest for me now, because not only is the Lead Character committing crimes all over the pace and getting away with them, but the secondary characters are also being tainted by his actions, because they appear to believe that his actions are not only lawful but perfectly acceptable as well.

    Not good!
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2008
  7. Missing

    Missing Pathologist

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    Very true and well put. I think H has always had his faith that the system works and justice is served but when it came to his family and he saw that they system has holes. I believe that that changed him and if you watch the news you see stories like that all the time. So it is definitely a reality.
    I am very curious to see how this plays out.

    I guess I didn't think it was corny because I think that look and twitching that H did, to me looked like shock --that it wasn't suppossed to happen. Rory's death scene was well acted but how many of us have actually seen someone die from being shot and who is too say how any of us would react to that event. Everyone is different.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2008
  8. Bigdog

    Bigdog Dead on Arrival

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    people that get shot, especially in the chest do twitch usually. So the twitching was actually really good. Only in hollywood can you see someone getting shot in the head or face without a twitch.

    You can't please anyone nowadays. People want Horatio to me more human, then we he gets shot it's corney or something like that. Yet, if he didn't get shot he isn't human and is a superhero that is bulletproof and bomb proof. Like I said before, if he was all perfect and obeyed the law 100%, do you really think this show would have gone up to season 6? I don't believe it would and the novelty of the show would have wore out by now.

    just watch CSI: NY, it's going to happen and people will start getting darker then they are now. I do agree up to a certain point of bad acting. There was 1 episode where the acting was horrible and I deleted it off my DVR. There are parts here and there where the acting is pretty bad but not to often. So far after watching almost every episode, I can saftely say that Horatio isn't the only one that has had bad acting moments. Calleigh, Eric, Wolf, and Natalia have all had moments where there acting made me roll my eye's. Some of those episodes that involved calleigh, eric, and wolf were in the early episodes believe it or not.

    Also, after that whole Riaz thing, he also had FBI, etc etc different names of the higher up on certain crimes and drug crimes to where for example the FBI wanted Horatio to leave it alone and to not worry about it which basically means to just let them walk. That never happened to him in earlier episodes, that started to happen right before if not right after the whole Riaz thing.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2008
  9. Della

    Della Police Officer

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    I agree, everyone is different, missing, and as said before in this thread, 'good acting' and 'bad acting' is completely subjective and therefore cannot be successfully contested one way or the other.

    But anyway, if you read again both those paragraphs of mine you have quoted, missing, I did say that it was not only Rory Cochrane's acting that made Speedle's death scene far more superior and far more believable to me than DC's as Horatio.

    Because what I also said was that in Speedle's death scene there were no fancy shots (drawing back from the scene through Horatio's cracked glasses) and no cool(?) twitching. What we saw with Speedle's death was just the hard core of the scene. In other words, the POV Speedle's death was shot from was basically Speedle's and Horatio's, and not from a superficial Artistic/Directional POV as I think Horatio's was.

    ...and that was primarily the main reason why Horatio's death scene to me was so corny, because it seemed to me that they went with what would look 'cool' rather than with something that had even a smidgeon of believability to it.

    ...But, that is just my opinion...

    Horatio getting shot didn't make him more human to me. It wasn't the fact that Horatio got shot that made the scene corny for me, it was how it was screened that made it so.

    The reason I think Horatio is more 'Super H' than human is because they have shown him in incredible situations, such as his hummer exploding into a fireball, and yet he has walked away without a scratch on him, not even a smudge mark of soot. He has also taken out just about anyone who fires a bullet at him.

    Didn't they ban the A-Team because it never showed a realistic view of what it would be like to be caught up in an explosion or be shot, or to be in a car that has turned onto its roof, or that the leads never ever got seriously hurt?

    Is CSI Miami as it is now better than the A-Team in that respect? I don't think so.

    As to whether CSI Miami would have reached the end of Six Seasons with as many viewers without turning Horatio Caine into a vigilante thug, well, in my opinion, it's a mute point because we will never know now. It might not have been something you would have continued watching, Bigdog, but if they had continued to test Horatio and the other characters morals and ethics and their belief in the system, that would have been something I'd've continued watching. We had it for 3-4 Seasons which still contained the unbelievable situations, the explosions and the dangerous situations and what not, so, in my opinion, turning Horatio into what he is now has only made me want to stop watching.


    :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2008
  10. Della

    Della Police Officer

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    I'd be grateful if someone could delete this post

    Cheers :)
     
  11. Finch

    Finch Funnier in Enochian Super Moderator

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    ^ We don't delete posts unless absolutely necessary. (Ie: Pornographic content) ;)
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2008
  12. Della

    Della Police Officer

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    ...ah, Okie dokie, thanks Speed_Cochrane... I just didn't want to waste space...

    :)
     
  13. Finch

    Finch Funnier in Enochian Super Moderator

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    No worries. :D

    By the way, concerning the 'shooting scene' with Horatio--I do agree that everyone reacts differently so we can't really say 100% how it would have gone down, like Missing stated. I do think, however, that the reason they added the shot in the sunglasses was to add that 'cool' effect which the scene didn't really need. We understand that Horatio is cool.

    And yeah, I laughed during that scene. However at least the bullet didn't bounce off of him. I don't suppose it's too much to ask that the continuation of the scene next season isn't over the top? I'd like to see him come back down to reality and deal with the reprecussions so I can see some more humanity. (because getting shot -- real or not -- gave me a smidge of hope that he has an ounce left)

    Agreed here. Which makes me wonder how much more influence Mr. Caruso has over what his character does/says.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2008
  14. GregNickRyanFan

    GregNickRyanFan Holographic Moderator Moderator

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    I half expected him to do that weird Matrix-style dodging of the bullet. :lol:

    I agree with a lot of your points about Horatio (not the acting, I'm not going to even comment on that). However, Stetler's the one who told Ryan "I need your gun and your badge" (which is cop-speak for "you're fired"). Which IMO he did because Horatio didn't have the heart to fire Ryan. Horatio's the one who got Ryan his job back. Not only that, but before H was able to get Ryan his CSI job back, he got him the bodyguard job for that swimmer or whatever she was. So, I'd say he was pretty good to Ryan in that way. Even Ryan said that basically it was more than he deserved. Not in so many words, but basically he said it, yeah. :lol:

    I agree that Speed's death scene was better than Horatio's "death" scene. I'm not talking acting, I'm talking the way it was shot and stuff. Horatio's looked too "movie based on comic-book-like" whereas Speed's looked more serious, I guess. I think the twitching for Horatio was little too overdone. A little less twitching would have been much more effective IMO.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2008
  15. HnStetlerfan

    HnStetlerfan Pathologist

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    Oh, you guys, you guys, you guys!!!!:guffaw:I can't believe you're really debating back and forth about who's death scene was more realistic and whose was corny! :guffaw:Could it possibly be that Speed's was made to look more realistic because *he actually died*??? And the TPTB knew that no matter what they did, it would still be known--because it was publicized on the net--that H wasn't going to really be dead.
     

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