JUMP THE SHARK!!! In What Way(s) Do You Think CSI: Miami Has Jumped.

Re: JUMP THE SHARK!!! In What Way(s) Do You Think CSI: Miami Has Jumpe

Hmm let me think about some of them

1) Probably the biggest one ever....the death of Speed. I still cannot forgive authors for their choice especially the way it happened.

2)When Raymond Caine came back from the dead. Come on the seriousness of the show disappeared after it. Hopefully they won't make this mistake another time with Speed....although I so want him back.

3) Marisol....another big mistake. This relationship between her and Horatio was the reason number one why I hated s4.
First, you can't introduce one relative of our CSI Delko in the way they introduced her. Come on the showed immediatly she had cancer although I would have never bet on it without knowing it. You can tell me everything about Marisol ( I'm the first one to think she was such a sweet lady and I loved her character...plus Alana De La Garza was adorable) but please do not mention she had a cancer.....cause I'm going to say come on.....it's..it's it gets me mad knowing she has cancer. I know some people with this terrible problem and I can guarantee you they don't look so well as Marisol did.
Second, her relationship with H was kinda bleah. I mean she was what?? 25 years old...and H was surely 48. Plus what was the purpose of such an odd relationship???? as ThumpyG42 mentioned it really looked like Yelina, Raymond Caine and Ray jr. didn't exist anymore.

4) The whole mole stuff. It was built in a good way especially in the last episodes...but still it was pretty obvious since the beginning that the mole was Natalia. They made good efforts to make the viewers think it was another persone but sincerly was introduction was that kind of intrudiction which make me told "Boa like the snake" as Ryan said immediatly.

5) Adding new faces and character. I love both Natalia and Tripp but in all honesty their addition just made it more impossible to share the scenes in a proper way as it happend with practically no scenes for Alexx. We were hardly knowing something about Ryan...and then they add Natalia and Tripp and in my opinion was kinda like cutting the possibility for some development of characters like Ryan and Natalia. After their entry the only thing they could do for some development was just adding new drama always for the same Horaio, Calleigh and Eric (especially s5 - s6).

6)This absurd "triangle". They added Jake with a purpose in their mind...creating the triangle in order to attract more viewers. Now I'm all for this kind of stuff although it is CSI:Miami but only if they work on it in a proper way.
You can't add a new character and disfruit him only in few episodes to show him like the dumbest person of the world (I'm sure 100% that Jake is everything except of dumb or jerk...as they clearly are showing),who never cares for his woman. This is not fair for a trinagle....I mean in this way it's obvious you'll see two lines, the real triangle should be with both Jake, Eric fighting like hell for their girl Calleigh drool::devil:such a great image for my eyes)not making Jake lie to Calleigh and then ask for Eric's help when he needs to show he cares for her (and I speak as a Cake fan but I won't go further with shipping discussions).
When finally there's the biggest opportunity to solve this "triangle" ("All In") you cannot cast everyone in it except Jake. It's ridiculous also for this ridiculous triangle...it would have been far better if they had showed him and made him screw up.

6) To me this one is practically at the same level of number 1. Eric's shooting.
I heard a lot of people saying that Eric matured a lot after it...well let me say that Eric already matured throughout s4 and there was no need to shoot him.
This shooting changed him a lot yeah obviosly but probably I'm the only one to think that it destroyed a charater ( he was my fav. after Speedle's death).
Let's consider what happened right after the BANG. He was there lying on the floor lifless. They tried to revive him for 11 minutes and after the declaration of death he suddenly resuscitated with the athropine.
In "Man Down" I think we all heard what Alexx told to Calleigh..."BRAIN DAMAGE...LOSS OF OXIGEN...BULLET IN HIS BRAIN...HE WON'T BE THE SAME ERIC WE KNEW".
Now such injuries can have after affects that stay with the victim for years after the initial incident, and other problems don't turn up right away they become evident some time after the inicial injury as the brain slowly but surely rewires itself. These can be behavioral problems like manic depression or delusional problems.
Now what was the purpose of it??? Why did they have to start making him having tones of troubles after they already made him mature??? A year has already passed but still I can't understand why.
Plus this kind of theme to me was showed in the wrost way possible. I mean he souldn't have come back to work ever after the incident..plus when he came back he didn't have any kind of tutor figure to help him...come on people with brain injuries, if they're lucky enough to survive or not become a vegetable, ofter are afflicted with problems that persist for years and they often have to readapt to their new disability. As a person who works on ambulances I'm still shocked to see they're letting him work alone without anyone to help him as if anything happened.

 

Re: JUMP THE SHARK!!! In What Way(s) Do You Think CSI: Miami Has Jumpe

I have to agree that some really enormously idiotic things have happened in the last 3 years. Ray's resurrection is the beginning.

While I like the idea of Marisol having cancer and the way it affected Eric's life (it was wonderful character development stuff for him), I do not like the way it was portrayed. I have known and still know cancer patients and they never look as beautiful as Alana de la Garza looked. In the midst of chemo, my friend, Fran, looked pretty much like death. She lived through it and is healthy and thriving, by the way. She would have killed to look as great as Marisol and not as she did; bald, pale, throwing up green bile because she'd already thrown up everything that was in her already. She was too ill to even enjoy her grandbaby.

On the subject of having a family member brutally murdered....Eric was spot on. He raged against the world. His grief was raw and honest. Adam Rodriguez did a wonderful job and I'm glad the writers gave him the opportunity to express Eric's all-consuming anguish. My friend, Aileen's, husband of over 30 years, was brutally murdered. I met him only once and he was soft spoken, funny and gentle. He was a gentleman. He was stabbed over 20 times in his office. David was a dermatologist. She was full of anger and vengence once the grief subsided. He was murdered (his daughter found him) 18 months ago and they have yet to bring his murderer to trial because he fled the country, claimed citizenship through his mother, to one that has no death penalty. IMHO, he's a scum-sucking b^%$*#d that I would love to see pay the same price David did for trying to help his killer clear up his acne. Let's just say that a certain European country is not on my good list right now.

I dislike the "Super H" character that Horatio has become. He's not a real person anymore. Why does he show no real concern for the team anymore? Calleigh took a bullet to the chest (admittedly while wearing a kevlar vest) and there was no mention of his concern for his second in command's well being. Natalia was more worried about her. He'd rather blow up a truck (from waaaaaaaaay too close), that could have been left to Homeland Security, than check on a member of his team who nearly was killed.

All in all, things have changed on the show that I dislike, though not enough to stop watching....yet. I know Khandi is leaving as of Monday's new episode. I honestly hope they send her off with a grand episode full of all the good things that the CSI franchise is known for. I want a real BANG! for her. Alexx Woods was a wonderful character and no one can truly replace her as the team's ME. She was the hearthfire to the team's roundhouse.

I know someone with a TBI and she had to relearn everything from scratch and, five years later, she's still not all back. Now, I can understand that Adam Rodriguez wasn't leaving the show and that the show is about forensics (supposed to be, anyway), but they could have made it harder for Eric. Though, he did have someone looking over his shoulder, and that was Calleigh.

Despite the echoes of Warwick Brown, I liked the problems that Ryan was having with gambling, although it's somewhat inconsistent with OCD behavior in general. OCD is all about all control all the time and you can't control the deal of a card or the spin of a blackjack wheel or the roll of the dice (fixed, yeah, but that's not Ryan). I know what I'm talking about. My mom is OCD and I work with special ed. kids, a few whom have had OCD.

 

Re: JUMP THE SHARK!!! In What Way(s) Do You Think CSI: Miami Has Jumpe

I'm very sorry to hear that.

 

Re: JUMP THE SHARK!!! In What Way(s) Do You Think CSI: Miami Has Jumpe

I don't like to be a jerk, and I don't like to target people, but della I feel I have to respond to this. You are a spectator in this story line, you are a viewer of a television show, one which is very popular, and very well written. You did not write the show, you did not work with or for the artistic director, meaning the only perspective you have on Horatio is that which you have gained by watching the show. As a character Horatio is a concept which exists solely within the minds of the writers, and only they truly know who he is. They dictate his past present and future, and they are the only ones who have a full grasp upon what his true, and deep emotional, philosophical, and perceptual sentiments are. You seem to be seeking a static version of Horatio. One which never changes which only shows a single personality, and never deviates from what you thought was his single methodology, and path. In literary terms H is not a flat or a static character, he is the main character, the focus of the show; making him a dynamic, and round character. You are used to Horatio's predictable convictions, but you fail to see that he does not reflect this idealistic cop which you seem to be trying to project upon him, but in fact is a far more complex being. This show is not "jumping the shark" it is merely testing Horatio's convictions and attempting to show you the viewer a different view of Horatio. You should be happy about what is happening, they are adding depth to his character, and by doing this they are giving you an opportunity to learn more about him.

I mean what are you looking for, a show which constantly recycles similar crime scenarios and throws a predictable and well lets be honest boring, and immortal Horatio into the mix? The show has done that for its entire existence until now. Now it seems to be displaying a more fluid, dynamic Horatio rather than the rusting, and dogmatic Horatio.

They are just giving him some nuance, and they are attempting to make him more human. Frankly I am glad to see the shift, it adds a level of unpredictability to the show, and causes me to question what might happen at the end. Before this, I could see the scenario at the beginning and already know the ending. Tell me, this would you watch that same old hat for another 2 years? For most of us the answer is no; for most of us, we want to see a change, a deviation from the predictably of the past. We want to see an imperfect Horatio, someone who must struggle with their convictions just as each of us must at some point in our lives. That is what makes a good story, we want to see someone we can relate to. If you don't like the change don't watch the show. In fact if you hate this H so much, try watching a season of 24 with the same attitude you have now, and pay close attention to his view on justice, and his view on the law; that will give you some perspective on just how different H is from your view of a "hypocritical", "self serving", "unjust" "thug".

 

Re: JUMP THE SHARK!!! In What Way(s) Do You Think CSI: Miami Has Jumpe

I agree. I still firmly believe that H is justified in his recent actions - I would've done the same things.

H is becoming more human, and I cannot express how much I approve of this change. He has reverted back to the season 1-3 H, and though I am shocked of how suddenly this has taken place, I wholly approve of it.

I still do not get why the writers, as well as Caruso himself, decided to change H's character in season 4. He became so much like a zombie that it was difficult to watch. Not just like a zombie, but during some scenes he did things that the old H would have NEVER done - for instance, at the end of Under Suspicion, H begged Judge Ratner not to release Resden. He BEGGED to a murderer. That was not something the old H would ever dream of doing. In season 5 he got a little better, but still like a zombie. I was becoming very worried, because the old H is the reason why I got into the show in the first place. I got the season 2 DVD as a Christmas present one year, and absolutley admired H. I LOVED the guy. Then I bought season 4 and thought, "What the f***?"

But now, H is back to his old self entirely, at least for me. He's doing lab work, shows more emotion, and is wearing lighter colors again. I remember one day when I was watching Rio with a friend of mine, and we both shouted "Zombie" at the screen occassionally. It was a good laugh, but deep down, I was pained. Now that discomfort is gone. Yes, he has done some things he hadn't done in the earlier seasons, but does that mean that he wouldn't have done them? Maybe he did, only we didn't see it.

 

Re: JUMP THE SHARK!!! In What Way(s) Do You Think CSI: Miami Has Jumpe

Iamthey - I'm not looking to get into a debate here. I don't watch CSI Miami any longer and for the reasons I have given in quite a few posts on here.

...So, I'll just answer this question from you...

What I look for in a program is a consistency of character, and when they show an action or even something that is said by a character that could be construed as 'out of character', then I expect there to be some sort of foreshadowing that will justify such actions/expressions.

In my opinion, and I know I am re-iterating myself here, but considering all that we have been shown concerning the Horatio Caine character, then I think his execution of the Mala Noche gang member and the supposed beating up of the Paedophile, was completely out of character and ruined the core of the character for me.

As said before, this has nothing to do with whether the Gang Member deserved to be executed, or whether the Paedophile deserved a good beating, I'm not looking at those two scenes from their POV, they are not important to me in that respect.

In my opinion, those two scenes basically justified police brutality, where an Officer of the Law has every right to administer a punishment that satisfies him and him alone simply because of whom he is dealing with, and that, in my opinion, is in complete contradiction, not only of what a Law Enforcement Officer's duty is, but also in complete contradiction to what we had been shown of the Horatio Caine character.

What I also look for in a program is the slightest bit of believability, most especially from the characters. For me, it is the characters which grounds the sensational storylines that a program like CSI Miami often screens and without it, you have a comic book program in the literal sense of the word, which is what I think CSI Miami has become of late.

I might get some enjoyment out of how it is screened and the lighting and what not, but for me, those are secondary to how the character is behaving. I have already admitted that I enjoyed how the scene with the Mala Noche gang was screened, but that the context left a lot to be desired.

...My final words on this is...

[spoiler="Lastly]Having seen the promo for the final episode of this season, all I could think was "Well, what goes around, comes around" and I am a little upset to find myself feeling that way about a character I used to enjoy[/spoiler]

Now that is all I'm going to say on this matter now, because as far as I'm concerned, they have wrecked the Horatio Caine character for me and no matter what happens to him now it will not dredge up an ounce of sympathy from me.

*sigh*

 

Re: JUMP THE SHARK!!! In What Way(s) Do You Think CSI: Miami Has Jumpe

Nice to know, my friend, especially how "moral" you consider yourself to be. You are not moral in any sense of the word - you're just a hypocrite. You try to pass yourself off as somebody moral, sane and good natured, but I can see through that veil of lies. To be honest with you, Della, I can easily see you executing Horatio the way he executed that gang member.

I know this is nothing more than a TV show, but you trash Horatio in every post you make nowadays and it is pissing me off. It's ridiculous. You don't watch the show anymore, no longer offer any good insight into it, and therefore have no place in the Miami forum anymore. Beat it.

 

Re: JUMP THE SHARK!!! In What Way(s) Do You Think CSI: Miami Has Jumpe

Another thing for me: the disappearance of the lab tech people (Tyler Jenson, Joseph Kayle, Aaron Peters, Sam Belmontes, etc.). While the original CSI's lab techs have been able to develop, CSI Miami's techs (with the exception of Maxine Valera) have languished, and this really makes me wonder how much life CSI Miami has left in it.

 

Re: JUMP THE SHARK!!! In What Way(s) Do You Think CSI: Miami Has Jumpe

Oh yeah that is a big one for me. This show used to utilize the lab techs all the time...like Vegas. The only difference between the two shows now is that Vegas still utilizes its techs. To me it makes our CSI's look like they 'do' everything and can 'do' everything all by themselves w/o any help. And that they have the time to 'do' everything while simultaneously investigating a murder!

 

Re: JUMP THE SHARK!!! In What Way(s) Do You Think CSI: Miami Has Jumpe

Agreed. In fact, the only reason I currently prefer CSI Miami to CSI Las Vegas is that LV's main cast has recently started to disintegrate (First Sara, then Warrick, who's next?).

 

Re: JUMP THE SHARK!!! In What Way(s) Do You Think CSI: Miami Has Jumpe

Oh wow, dogbert, how you manage to blur reality with the fictional is such a wonder to see.

I mean, you can actually... see me ...executing a TV character and because of that, I can't possibly have any morals, or sanity or that I could possibly be good natured??!!?? Wow! Amazing! Amazing! Do you think the same about those who play "Shoot-em-ups" on the computer?

Still, dogbert, who died and made you Moderator/Owner of this Forum? Hmm? Oh, wait a minute, is it because I piss you off? Is that it? Is that what gives you the right to expect me to 'beat it', just because you've told me to? Heh! Heh! Heh!

You honestly tempt the childish streak in me to stick around, because that childish streak in me, dogbert, is so thoroughly entertained by your posts

Look, just a piece of advice, dogbert. In future, if you ever feel the need to vent your spleen at me, why don't you send me a message instead, that way you can be as rude, crude and thoroughly disrespectful as you like and it won't take a thread off topic or get either one of us a warning. What do you say to that, huh?

*sigh*

 

Re: JUMP THE SHARK!!! In What Way(s) Do You Think CSI: Miami Has Jumpe

So what you are saying is, you would like them to introduce this new behavior slowly, and provide experiences which would back up his new logic. Rather than just do it immediately. I suppose thats a fair request. However, the question I would ask at this point is have there been previous rapist episodes where H has walked in as it was happening, or the other scenes you have provided. If there is no precedent for action in the past, meaning if he has never had that experience before how can we expect him to act in a certain way. There are two very different types of crime. One is a rational type of crime which is done in your own self interest for a clear reason, and with a rational behind it. For example, person X steals a box of fruit from a store to feed his starving family. Or person X kills a murder who killed his son. These are both rational crimes meaning there is a reason to justify the action. In the first one assuming the guy had no other option you can see why he would take the illegal action to save them. For the second instance revenge is a rational form of crime under both a retributive , and protectionary framework. Under the first the criminal upset a balance of value, and killed the son of person X, person X then administers justice by killing the criminal and satisfying his own need to avenge his son. The reason this is a legitimate crime, is the simple fact that murder is a personal crime, it is committed against a single person, or family, and not against society or the state. Therefore I see no reason why that same family can not then seek revenge against the single criminal. Secondly it satisfies a protectionary frame work in that the criminal murdered, meaning he could murder again in the future, and thus to protect society he must be removed from the streets by imprisoning him, or killing him. Whether it was done for objective reasons, or subjective reasons it still accomplishes that same goal which is to protect society. Now my reason for listing this is the simple fact that under these two crimes we can see why a person would commit them, we can understand them. We could even see the reason why a contract killer would do what he does, for monetary gain. Now just because we can understand them doesn't make them right, but it obviously effects our view of the criminal, we would treat them with a great deal more respect than those on the opposite spectrum.

On the other end you have irrational criminals, people who commit crime either to have fun, or to acheive some form or pleasure. A rapist is an irrational criminal, this is a person who commits the act of rape against usually an innocent individual for their own temporary pleasure. They gain nothing from the act, and they only fuel their own need for more sex. Additionally you have the vadel, a person who damages the property of others for their own self enjoyment. Neither of these "pays" the criminal, and the thus the damage they do is what I would call a dead weight loss, similar to its use in economics a dead weight loss in this instance is an instance where action generates a situation where no one gains, and certain people (the victims) could have been better off had the action not been taken. This makes up the most depraved and sick crimes of them all. Serial killers, rapists, child molesters, vanelism, the list goes on.

Now if H had never been exposed to one of the crimes first hand, and if he had never been alone with one of these criminals with the ability to cover up what he wanted to do, how could we ever be sure of his convictions? Just because a person acts in public one way, doesn't change what they might do in private. Now if you were to provide a precedent where he was there to watch the rape, then just hand cuffed the guy and marched him down to the police station like the perfect cop would I would obviously conceded on this matter.

And yes I know you don't want to get into a debate thats fine. I just wanted to respond in opposition to the thread, and yours seemed to represent the affirmative side of the thread.

 

Re: JUMP THE SHARK!!! In What Way(s) Do You Think CSI: Miami Has Jumpe

...Okay, Iamthey, here's the.. I dunno, I suppose the whatever...

There is an episode called “Broken” (S1ep6) where Horatio and his team are investigating the death of a very young girl, a child, who was found dead in the ladies toilet.

During the investigation, Horatio and his team find several graves of other young girls that Otis has raped and murdered. Did Horatio instigate a way in which he could visit Otis on his own and exact a personal revenge before taking Otis into custody? No he didn’t.

Instead, the entire episode focussed on the diligence of Horatio and his team and how the evidence collected at all of the scenes was collaborated and used to identify the child molester. Not once did this episode insinuate anything other than Horatio allowing the evidence to bring Otis to justice, nor did it insinuate that Horatio might have a more personal agenda on the side, like he had in the recently shown episode “To Kill A Predator” (S6Ep17).

Then there was “Body Count” (S1Ep24) where Horatio was pitted against Stewart Otis again. Now this was, in my opinion, a crucial episode, because Horatio knew what Otis was capable of and yet still this episode did not insinuate anything other than Horatio using the evidence to bring Otis to justice, despite the fact that Otis taunted Horatio with a video of the young girl, the child, he had kidnapped.

At the end of this episode, Horatio and his team catch Otis running away with a young girl, the cousin of the first girl Otis had taken, knowing full well that if they don’t catch Otis then another girl will be in his clutches. The cliffhanger of this episode has Horatio holding onto Otis who is hanging over the edge of the parking garage several floors up, who is also begging Horatio to let him go.

Horatio’s words were “I wish I could, Otis” but he doesn’t. He pulls Otis to safety.

I do think it could be said that in this recent episode (To Kill A Predator) Horatio was motivated by the fact that they couldn’t actually bring the Paedophile to justice because the evidence they had was not enough to convict. Fair enough, however, that is still no justification for Horatio to take the law into his own hands and administer a punishment he deemed justifiable for the Paedophile. Besides if he wanted to stop the Paedophile from ever committing another offence in the future then he should have just killed him, like he did the gang member (Still, who knows, Horatio might have beaten the Paedophile to death)

As far as I’m concerned though, Horatio failed any girl the Paedophile would come into contact with by not making sure that all the evidence they could gather was enough to convict the Paedophile. When it comes to the character, that is not a bad thing, it happens at times that for one reason or another the evidence gained is not enough to convict. However what is bad when it comes to the character is that Horatio then seriously failed the Agency he works for, and all that entails, by allowing his personal judgements to motivate his actions, and then most of all he also failed himself, his own personal morals and ethics, by allowing that to happen.

So, the reason the core of the Horatio Caine character has been ruined for me is because now, at the core of the Horatio Caine character, there is nothing more than what motivates, for instance, a member of the Mala Noche gang. Someone who believes they have the right to initiate their own form of punishment, one that is in direct conflict with the laws of the land, onto those who they feel has aggrieved them and others and the way in which they live their lives.

What I also found distasteful was the fact that Horatio insinuated that his execution of the Mala Noche gang member was ‘Miami Justice’. Wrong, it was Horatio Caine’s Justice and that Justice is now no better than the Mala Noche’s. In fact, in my opinion, it is worse than the Mala Noche’s because he has implied that his actions are on behalf of the badge that he wears.

So, anyway, as it stands right now for me, unless Horatio Caine is punished by the Law for taking that Law into his own hands, as it does do to any others who decide to take the law into their own hands, then until that happens, the Horatio character is irredeemable to me.

...Sorry...

All in all though, I know that I could list several other episodes, if not all of them, and let you know what I got from that episode in regards to the Horatio Caine character, but in all honesty, that would take time and I'd feel it would be time wasted considering that I no longer feel the same way about the Horatio character. It wouldn't be a labour of love in other words, it would just remind me of how much I dislike the character now.