Grade 'Personal Foul'

I think nasty is too strong a word but I really didn't like how he spoke to her in RND when she refused his offer of coffee. It was a typical male defensive tactic imo and I have to say I felt a little disilusioned in my adoration of Danny as a character at that moment. His 'why d'ya gotta make such a big deal out of it' comment along with his slightly surly facial expression (beautifully acted by Carmine by the way) kinda got me in the gut for a minute. I hadn't expected that from him.

But, on the other hand I think it was a very realistic portrayal of how grief can affect someone and I think it really WAS a defensive tactic. Everything else in Danny's life was coasting along with a degree of normalcy, his method of dealing with his grief kept most aspects of his life in some semblence of order. The only thing outwardly affected was his relationship with Lindsay, and she (of course depending somewhat on what the relationship actually was) was the one person who could really call him on his behaviour because to almost everyone else he was probably 'dealing' with his grief effectively. And by 'effectively' I mean his work wasn't being affected (at least not since AiTF when the impact was cushioned by the actions of Flack and Lindsay).

 

But if you put it in the context of what was happening he wasn't that out of line by thinking she was making a big deal out of nothing. He forgot her birthday and declined a lunch invitation. That is hardly a reason for her to act visibly pissed off at him and unprofessional in front of their co-workers. She doesn't know about Rikki, and we have no indication that Danny saw his and Lindsay's relationship as a committed one, so he may not feel guilty about sleeping with Rikki. In his mind her reaction based on their interactions up to that point was out of line, so he calls her on it. I don't see anything too terribly wrong with that.

 

I don't disagree with any of that if, as you say that is the context they were dealing with. I'm still holding out on calling the actual context until we get more information (IF we ever do) as to the state of their relationship. But, it wasn't so much him being pissed off at her for her actions, more it was the tone of his voice and his 'attitude' that got me. It was cruel and made my stomach lurch for a moment. Okay, it's only a tv show but I'm pretty sure most of us have been on the receiving end of that kind of attitude at some point in our lives and if it's from someone you love (irrespective of whether they know it at the time) it really, really hurts. Hence the stomach lurching from me.

 

Of course they will never tell us it is more fun them to come on these boards and read about us going batsh*t.

 

:lol: My rant about Danny/Flack being 'just a gay fantasy a few of us have' isn't directed at anyone in particular. However, knowing how many D/F fans there are across the world and having had the opportunity to communicate with them, I'd say 'only a few of us' being fans of D/F isn't accurate.

As for Danny calling out Lindsay's annoyance at him turning down lunch, I don't see it as him being nasty or cruel at all. Remember, she pretty much did the same thing to him last season, except in a way, it was worse. She left him sitting at the restaurant like a dolt, and when he asked her (nicely!) why she didn't go to the dinner (or even call him to let him know she wasn't coming!), she couldn't even be bothered giving him a reason other than, "It's not you, it's me." And she left him standing there like a dolt again (smiling as she walked away after basically turning him down!) and what does he do? He doesn't get annoyed in the least and even tells her he's there if she wants to talk to him.

So yeah, don't see anything wrong with him finally making a say for himself after all this time. And like PerfectAnomaly said, seeing it in context of the whole situation, wasn't that out of line at all. (Geez, I should just link to that mega-long post I did in this thread.)

And like everyone else in regards to D/L, I just wanna know whether TPTB will crap or get off the pot already. :lol:

 

Top41 wrote:

One of the things you've pointed out numerous times is how Danny doesn't seem to feel the same way as Lindsay does about him, right? I think based on how he's been treating her she may have realized this as well.

So the question really becomes why would --or more, why should-- Lindsay do anything more with Danny? She laid open her feelings for him and the immediate response wasn't overwhelmingly positive.

[FONT=&quot]Remember, it's more than just a missed birthday and a brush off for lunch. He walked away from her when she rushed in to the morgue during "Child's Play". He didn't even think to call her for what happened in "All in the Family", nor did he ever thank her for covering his shift. He avoided her calls and it's implied that he's been avoiding her altogether.

Then there's the forgotten birthday and him not wanting to go to lunch with her. I think if he'd been sincerely apologetic she wouldn't have been so hard on him, but really think back to his reaction to her missed birthday.

It was more of a flippant "Ooops, my bad" than an actual "I'm sorry, I'll make it up to you". And let's face it, Danny's refusal to have lunch with Lindsay was just that; a refusal. He made it clear he didn't want to spend time with her.

To top all that off, when Lindsay was obviously still upset at him, instead of him saying, "Look, I know I've been difficult, I'm sorry," he had the audacity to say, "Why you gotta be that way?". He says this the same day he slept with another woman. Lindsay may not know that, but we, and certainly he knows this.

I'll have to disagree. Danny was persistent in that episode, demanding her to explain to him what was going on, and being slightly harsh with her when she didn't give him an answer. It was obvious by Lindsay's behavior that something was up but until the end of the episode, Danny was vastly more concerned with his needs than her needs.

And recall; Lindsay brushed Danny off for one episode and was finally honest with him at the end. She didn't tell him what was happening in her life but she did tell him that she couldn't start something up with him.

Danny on the other hand, has been brushing Lindsay off for at least three episodes, and he hasn't been honest with her in the least. Not to mention their relationship is at a different point now than it was in "Love Run Cold". Regardless of whether they were truly boyfriend/girlfriend, they are still far more intimate and close than they were when Lindsay stood Danny up.

PerfectAnomaly wrote:

I didn't say not going to her was nasty. I said at one point he was nasty to her. There's a big difference between what I wrote and what you're implying I wrote.

Lindsay has never said that Danny shouldn't grieve. I think the problem is her role in the grief process, or at this point, her lack of a role. She wants to help him and he's made it abundantly clear he doesn't want her help.

And I don't give Danny a break because well, his behavior isn't acceptable. Just because someone is having a problem doesn't mean that they should get a "break". You can understand their situation, you can be there for them, but you cannot excuse them for what they do. Lindsay didn't get the benefit of the doubt from fans, why should Danny?

Loving someone also doesn't mean that you allow them to ignore you or hurt you just because they're grieving. What Danny is doing is beyond any normal or healthy grief, and to allow him to wallow in it is not beneficial to anyone, least of all him.

As for LRC, Danny was persistent to the point of aggravating Lindsay. Even his comment about grabbing lunch felt and sounded like a manipulation to get Lindsay to do what he wanted. And Lindsay was honest with Danny about the prospects of a romance between them, something Danny hasn't quite grasped yet, apparently.

No, not going to Lindsay for comfort is not dishonest. Lame excuses for not going to lunch with her is dishonest, especially since it's not shown on camera and is therefore not canon. That's how you view it, right? So we can't assume anything that is not on camera, especially since there was absolutely no implication on-screen that showed that Danny had done any errands.

What we do know is that immediately after Danny brushed Lindsay off he slept with Rikki...again. Omission of truth is not an entire lie, but it's not exactly honest, is it?

We don't have an "official" status on the relationship from Danny's perspective, no. However, the fact that he is now pursuing Lindsay again is quite telling. "Why don't you come over here and tell me..." wasn't just a friendly invitation to have ice cream and watch a movie.

When he's breaking up with Rikki, he tells her he's "Starting to think..." that what they are doing isn't a good idea. Really? You're just starting to think about that Danny? Considering that a good week or more has passed since Lindsay declared her love for him and he's been trying to talk to her ever since gives me a not-so-nice picture of what Danny has been doing.

Either he's been sleeping with Rikki while pursuing Lindsay again, or he shut Rikki out in order to try to get back with Lindsay. Either way, I'm not impressed with what he's doing, and I find it to be dishonest.

If he had only missed her birthday and begged out of lunch, I would tend to agree. But it's more than that, and I don't know how you can forget it. Lindsay even tells Danny what the problem is; and it's been an on-going issue since "Child's Play". The missed birthday and the lunch are just the tip of the iceberg for Lindsay.

What it boils down to is that Lindsay realizes that[FONT=&quot] she is not important enough in Danny's life for him to have turned to her at all. She tells him that she never expected him to not grieve. She knows what he's going through to a certain extent. She did what he wanted, which was to give him space. She stood back and waited. And waited. And he didn't turn to her, in fact ignored her. He forgot her and he purposely tried to hurt her by acting like she was being unreasonable with him.

Even with the terrible grief Danny is feeling, he shouldn't be allowed to say or do whatever he pleases "just because". He's going in a downward spiral and hopefully Lindsay telling him that his actions are not right will snap him out of it before he totally self-destructs.

 

I have said it before someone who Danny was suppose to be taking are of, a child none the less, was killed and he feels responsible. When someone dies most people just want to grieve by themselves. after hearing 'I'm Sorry' from 1,253,458 people it becomes kind old and starts to sound condesending. Not to mention the only thing Lindsay after Danny finds out Ruben has died is "I'm not really good at this sort of thing" really Lindsay? She comes off as selfish...

Lindsay can push him away when something bad happens and she has years to deal with it, but cannot give Danny his space for a couple of months. Maybe he thought he was protecting her, because bad things seem to happen around him (Ruben, Flack in COTP, Stella in AA, Aiden in Heroes, Louie RSRD) people around him get hurt or killed so maybe he needed to decompress.

Furthermore their is no by the book grieving process for this situation it is out of left field, a child, someone he was responsible for, and that he obviously cares about. Murdered not died at 95, not cancer, not a car accident (we mentally prepare and accept these risk) this was a person being careless and shooting a ten year old...I'm actually surprised Danny held it together as well as he did considering the circumstances.

He is a cop (yes a CSI, but he has a gun a badge) he took an oath to serve and protect. Could you image what he is feeling, because obviously the beloved Lindsay can't. He probably feels like he failed everything he stands for, and here Lindsay is essencially going 'how sad for you, but let's talk about me.' So he forgot her birthday he had other things to deal with.

I'm sorry if this seems callous or rude, but honestly he behavior is that of a high school girl who has never had a bad thing happen to her not a professional investigater who witnesses death and grief everyday. I just dislike the character she is the kind of woman that makes my guy friends want to pull their hair out...and makes me not have female friends, because the whole world reloves around them.

 

Lindsay didn't give Danny the option of having an immediate response to her monologue. She made it clear she was going to say her piece, and then walked out immediately when she was done. All attempts he made at talking to her after that were refused. If she doesn't think he feels the same way about her as she does him, it's because he pushed her away and didn't come to her with his grief. Danny's hasn't been allowed to give her a response, which just further illustrates Lindsay's selfishness.

Yeah, Danny hasn't been behaving like a good, little boyfriend. And Lindsay did go to him in the morgue, cover his shift (which after SD she more than owed him and we never saw her thank him for either.) and let Flack know she was concerned that he didn't show at work or answer his cell. She gets a cookie for all of that. But really, when has Lindsay tried to be there for him? Yes, he walked out of the morgue, but Ruben's body wasn't even cold yet. Since that time she has made no effort to let him know she's sorry for what happened, that she doesn't hold him responsible or that she is there for him if he needs her. Yes, he's been avoiding her outside of work, but since Ruben died they have worked together. Angell had no problem taking a minute to express her condolences to Danny while they were working together, but the woman who supposedly loves Danny didn't say or do a damn thing in way of support. If I were Danny I would have avoided her outside of work, too.

He did apologize. Did he bow down and throw himself at her mercy because he made the grievous mistake of forgetting Ms. Thang's birthday? No. Guys don't take things like birthdays as serious as women do, generally speaking. So his seemingly "flippant" apology wasn't necessarily insincere. Yes. He did decline her lunch invitation. That was better behavior than accepting it, standing her up and giving no explanation for why he stood her up, though. Danny has been a bad little boyfriend, that is true. And I don't fault Lindsay for being a little hurt about the birthday or lunch issues. But Lindsay should at least have a little understanding that Danny feels responsible for the death of a 10 year old child so his mind might not be on her birthday and he may not feel like having lunch with her.

But Lindsay doesn't know it. That is an important point to make. If Danny doesn't see their relationship as exclusive he has nothing to feel guilty about for sleeping with Rikki. He thinks the reason Lindsay is pissed is because of the birthday and the lunch invitation. He thinks she's over reacting and calls her on it. He's not wrong for doing that. He shouldn't be Lindsay's door mat who just takes her anger without question.

He was persistent because she stood him up and then wanted to act like nothing happened. He did want an explanation, but he didn't demand one. She never gave him one and yet he let her know he was there for her if she needed him. He didn't tell her he had to "let go" of any feelings he may have been experiencing for her because she didn't confide in him. He knew something was wrong and wanted her to talk about it. When she made it clear she didn't want to talk about it he let it go. I don't see how that is being concerned with his needs over hers.

I thought timelines were irrelevant? I guess they aren't if you're defending Lindsay. They slept together since LRC, yeah. But being more "intimate and close" since LRC is up to interpretation. I've seen nothing after SD to indicate to me they are close and remained intimate. They may have continued to have sex, but sex does not equal close and intimate.

You're right, you didn't say not going to her was nasty. You didn't say what he did that was nasty though, so I took a stab in the dark. My bad.

You're right, she never said he shouldn't grieve. But she did make it clear she wants him to grieve in a certain way and according to her timeline. She also made it clear that him not wanting to grieve her way or according to her timeline is enough to make her want to "let go" of loving him. And again, she had plenty of opportunity to make it abundantly clear that she was there for him to lean on and chose not to do that. Instead when he didn't automatically go to her she got pissed and scolded and punished him for it.

Lindsay hasn't shown that she understands his situation or that she's been there for him. She skipped that part and went straight to being angry because he grieved in a way she didn't like. I don't think anyone has excused Danny for his behavior, but Danny's bad behavior doesn't excuse Lindsay's bad behavior either. Danny gets the benefit of the doubt because he's been shown to me as being a caring, loving guy who makes mistakes but means well. He also gets the benefit of the doubt because it had been less than two months since Ruben died and he was still devistated. Lindsay doesn't because she did the same thing to Danny (pushed him away, wouldn't confide in him) as Danny is doing to her and Danny remained supportive. Lindsay never tried to be supportive of Danny and then got angry at him because he wasn't using her for support. If Lindsay had specifically told Danny, "I'm here for you if you need a shoulder or someone to talk to," and Danny had still pushed her away I'd be more understanding of why she might be irritated with him. How is Danny supposed to know she's there for him if she never communicated that to him? He's not psychic.

Is what Danny is doing "beyond any normal or healthy grief?" I can agree that his way of expressing his grief isn't "healthy," but what is "normal" grief? Loving someone doesn't mean you allow them to intentionally hurt you, but loving someone doesn't mean getting pissed at someone for not grieving the way you want them to grieve either. Lindsay didn't have to get pissed and lecture him. She could've been more empathetic and then if he acted like a jerk I would understand her getting pissed.

He had every right to be persistent. She stood him up and he deserved an explanation. He wanted to talk about where they stood and was clear about that, so I don't see how he "manipulated" Lindsay. Danny backed off when she told him she couldn't be with him. It was Lindsay who initiated a relationship once the trial was over. How can Danny grasp that there is no prospect of a romance between them when Lindsay initiated sex and now told him she loves him? It seems to me Lindsay has trouble figuring out what she wants and Danny is just along for the ride to see where it ends up.

I never said it was canon. Canon is something shown or said on screen. He said he had errands to do and listed them. That is canon. It wasn't shown or said wether he did those errands or not, so we can't assume he did or did not do those errands. To assume he flat out lied to her is as wrong as saying he absolutely did do the errands before his shift. If he did the errands he was not dishonest. He was putting things that could wait ahead of having lunch with her, but that's not the same thing as being dishonest. If he didn't do the errands, then yes, he was dishonest. But in the grand scheme of life, I personally don't see making up false excuses so you don't have to go to lunch with someone as such a horrible thing. Maybe I'll burn in eternal hellfire for thinking that, but I do.

So he slept with Rikki again, that doesn't make him dishonest. If he didn't think he and Lindsay were exclusive there's nothing wrong with sleeping with Rikki and not telling Lindsay. Having sex with Rikki again after he hung up with Lindsay doesn't necessarily mean he was having sex with Rikki up until the time he had to leave for work, so it doesn't necessarilymean he was dishonest.

Danny has abandonment issues and it makes sense he wouldn't want Lindsay to give up on him or if he thought she was "leaving" him he'd try and get her to stay. He got upset when Rikki said she was leaving, too. The fact that he turned to Lindsay after she ranted at him for not turning to her doesn't say anything about the status of their relationship before her monologue. Danny wants to please people, we've seen it in his character since the beginning. If he knows Lindsay is upset with him he's going to do what he can to appease her.

I'm sorry, I'm not seeing the dishonesty. Danny openly admitted to Rikki he was doing what felt good to make the pain go away. He wasn't thinking about the possible ramifications of their actions. Just because he's been trying to talk to Lindsay doesn't mean that he's been "cheating" on her. Yeah, he needs to talk to Lindsay after her declaration of love and her scolding, but that doesn't have to have anything to do with Rikki. Lindsay's little tirade obviously got him to actually think about what he was doing and he realized Rikki was right and they should stop sleeping together. Considering how pissed Lindsay was I would bet he realized that he wouldn't be able to talk to her unless he apologized, so he did. That doesn't tell us anything about where they stand with each other.

Yeah, she tells him after she acts like a brat in front of their co-workers and after he asks if she's mad about her birthday. At the time he had no idea it went beyond the birthday and/or lunch. And when she does let him know it goes beyond that what she's essentially acting like a brat about is that Danny didn't grieve in the way or time frame she allotted.

"She waited. And waited," sounds like she was sitting around for years waiting for him to come around. It was less than two months after Ruben died. That's hardly any time at all. And he "purposely tried to hurt her?" Seriously? Not realizing what her problem is and thinking it was something trivial like forgetting her birthday - and yes, that is trivial compared to grieving for a 10 year old - is not "purposely" doing anything other than calling her on over reacting.

Again, no one is denying Danny isn't handling things well. But Lindsay didn't tell him anything out of concern for anyone other than herself. She wants him to know how everthing is affecting her and doesn't seem to give a damn about how it's affecting him.

 

I really don't think that he was "breaking up" with Rikki, because I don't think they were ever together in a relationship. He might've wanted to break off the sleeping with each other, but we don't know that he wasn't going to continue to talk to her if she hadn't moved away.

I see his wanting to talk to Lindsay as not pursuing her in terms of relationship, but in just wanted to talk to her. In my opinion, there is no solid canon evidence that the two of them were dating, only that they had sex once in Snow Day. To me, this means that Danny never saw their relationship as anything other than friendly, and Lindsay coming out and telling him that she loves certainly be jarring for him. He wants to talk to her about it, but it could only be that he wants to discuss what she said, not discuss them "getting back together" or begining a relationship. For that reason, I really don't see Danny as having been sleeping with Rikki while he was trying to get together with Lindsay, more like he was with Rikki on one level and Lindsay declared her love for him at the same time. Him trying to talk to her about what she said doesn't equal him trying to rekindle or start a relationship.

What else has been the problem? We hear that Danny hasn't come to Lindsay about Rueben, but we havent seen anything that shows Lindsay has tried to tell him that shes there for him. Based on her reaction I don't see how the birthday and lunch, the only two canon things that happened, are justifiable reasons for her anger.

The fact that Danny didn't think to turn to Lindsay says alot about their relationship, friendly or otherwise. If they really were as close as so many people want to believe, I would think he would be able to confide in his girlfriend about his grief, but he doesn't. I don't see this as him ignoring her, more like he confided in someone that he felt more comfortable with. He's talked to Mac and Flack, and accepted Angell's apologies for Rueben's death, but Lindsay has never done anything to say she's been there for him waiting. She wasn't "giving him space", she just never tried to tell him that she was there for him.

And what has he done to hurt her? He didn't confide in her, which is the ONLY canon thing that we've seen him do or not do. In his point of view, she is acting ureasonably because the only thing he thinks he's done is forget her birthday and not go to lunch with her. He doesn't know shes upset about him not talking to her about Rueben, so in his eyes her anger is unreasonable.

But Lindsay blowing him off for dinner and not giving an excuse and acting like a brat is totally fine because she's going through a trauma?

I still don't get what Danny has done to piss Lindsay off in the first place. He didn't have to talk to her about Rueben, but when she calls him on it he even attempts to talk to her-but she repeatedly blows him off in his offers to talk. Even if we take it in the context that he has done something wrong and is trying to apologize, she continues to blow him off and refuse to talk about it, which is extremely childish behavior in either context.

 

I have a hard time taking the character of Lindsay seriously just going on how long she seems to be holding tight to the anger and sulkiness. When watching it, it feels like she is going to wallow in the emotions and "punish" Danny for as long as she sees fit.

In regards to whether D/L are in a relationship, I just keep going back to LRC when Danny follows her out into the hall and they talk. When that scene ended I always took it to be that Danny admitted there was an attraction between the two of them, Lindsay said she couldn't be in a relationship with him, and Danny followed by indicating he was thinking more along the lines of hanging out, maybe having drinks, good times, etc. He wasn't looking for a relationship and she didn't want to be involved with him due to other issues in her life.

Then in Snow Day, they end up hanging out, doing shots, having a good time. Just what Danny was looking for. Then came the sex on the pool table. Danny probably thought all was great. Lindsay had told him she couldn't be in a relationship with him previously, and he'd told her that he was just looking for a good time, in a nutshell.

I don't think they were ever "dating", at least in Danny's eyes, especially after his reaction to her little speech about loving him.

Regardless of where the TPTB take the D/L situation, I don't think they could have a successful relationship as they have piss-poor communication. I just hope they don't make us all suffer by dragging it on. Let Danny take ownership of his balls once more. Lindsay certainly hasn't earned the right to them! :devil:

 

Thats a really good observation, snickerdoodle! I forgot that he had that mindset in LRC, and putting that into context with their one night of sex and his behavior in this season it really makes sense to think that he never wanted a relationship, and viewed what they did as simply having a good time.

When she tells him she loves him, the look on his face didn't look like guilt or hurt, more like "wait....what??" I think until that point he still viewed their friendship/relationship/whatever as a flirty have a good time friendship, and thought that she did, too. I think her saying she loves him shocked him, because I dont think that he ever felt that way about her. Him trying to chase her down and talk to her after that episode didnt equal him trying to get back together or hook up in the first place with her for me-it meant more that he finally realizes the depth of the feelings she has for him, and wants to discuss it with her. Whether they have him come out and say "hey look i don't feel the same way" or have him admit to loving her is yet to be seen, although I really do hope they don't go the his breaking down and confessing his love for her route. For one, it wouldn't follow what we already have seen and known about Danny, and it would hitch the two of them together again, something that neither character needs whatsoever. Danny was a crutch for Lindsay last season, and it damaged his character as well as holding hers back. Her character has a chance of redemption, at least for me, if they seperate her from this D/L mess and try to get her to stand on her own.

 

I'm supposed to be working right now, but I put on the full episode of "Personal File" in the background to see if I was right about something I remembered. For those of you who believe that the segments when Danny calls Lindsay and when Danny speaks with Rikki have been flip-flopped, I think I have proof that it was flipped. If you look at Danny's left elbow on the counter when he is speaking with L, and he says "The truth is, I miss you", there is a flat grayish card that I believe to be Ruben's memorial card (that Danny picked up off the coffee table) laying there on the counter. Then if you watch the scene where he is walking to the counter after closing the door when Rikki leaves, there is a pad of paper on the counter to his left, but it is farther over and it isn't flat like the card is. Bingo. :thumbsup:

I'm such a nerd. :lol: