Why Lindsay Must Go (Part 3)

<q>What games? She stood Danny up once. Right? That wasn't good of her. After that, she made it clear that she didn't want a relationship, that she needed space.</q>

And then when she couldn't deal with a distraught mother, she played on his <i>feelings</i> (because I have no idea what is going on with those two) get her out of it.

<q>To me, Danny looks like a jerk. Lindsay isn't perfect, but what is attributed as selfish and rude in Lindsay is apparently made perfectly fine in Danny -- because he's cute? That's pretty much the impression I've been getting.</q>

Not everybody on his board finds Carmine attractive. I don't. I never have and I never will. (Flack and Adam on the other hand). Danny I like (again I don't find him attractive either ). He is frustrating (in season 1 he made too many mistakes to name) but he is passionate, vunerable, loyal, caring, he admits his mistakes when he makes them (to the gypsy cab divers son). They are lovable traits, traits that draw you to someone, so it makes up for the times where he is frustrating and goes against good advice, when he is cocky, or does something that is selfish.

All in all, it makes him human.

I'm not saying Lindsey couldn't be <i>put out</i> that a guy who feels responsible for the shooting and subsequent death of a 10 year old in his care forgot her birthday, or that he didn't want to go to lunch with her (whether he actually lied or not we'll never know). Because despite our best intentions of being understanding to a grieving friend, our own feelings are there still.

In all fairness to Danny, Danny has always been a flirt. He flirted with Maka and Aiden, I never took it and it was never shown in any other way than he was just a flirt (no actual interest beyond friends). So when he did the smae to Lindsey, I never thought for a moment TPTB would think to consider a relationship from that. So (my point is) I don't actually believe he is persuing Lindsey romantically I think he just feels bad and wants to be friends, but that is all based on opinion and how I read the script and the actors.

When Lindsey first joined I never disliked her. She was new, I gave her a chance and in Season 2 she had some good moments. I liked her in "Stealing Home" and I wish TPTB had kept going in that vain. Soon her character did feel a bit Mary-Sue thought but she was new is an already established cast and therefore still trying to find her feet. Her and Danny's little "flirting" scene's were sweet and minimal, but it felt like TPTB were trying to get me to like her by making her all things to all people, and soon I didn't know who she was. In Season 3 it all went down hill rapidly for me, her moods swung drastically from one episode to the next and her "Dark Secret" felt like they were trying to make me feel sorry for her. As I hadn't warmed to her by then, it was lost on me.

I'm sure fan's of Lindsey didn't feel like that.

Season 4 Lindsey wasn't too bad, she had her moments where she grated but actually early on she was ok, she neither annoyed me nor made me like her. But a main character shouldn't make me feel like that.

I agree, Lindsey isn't an endearing character, neither is Mac. I think us non-Lindsey-lovers appreciate that she probably isn't meant to be soft and caring, but it's that we don't know what she is supposed to be. For instance, she could be socially awkward and closed off (as she is shown) but funny with it (think Christina Yang on GA if you watch it).

She doesn't have a trait that I can connect with. And I think that's the overall problem for me, Lindsey isn't someone I would like or get on with. Fine I don't need to connect with every TV Character on a show I watch, there are some character written that you love to hate, but I don't think we are suppose to feel like that about her.

And that's where I'm left wanting.

Sorry I think I rambled there.

 

And then when she couldn't deal with a distraught mother, she played on his feelings (because I have no idea what is going on with those two) get her out of it.

Not everybody on his board finds Carmine attractive. I don't. I never have and I never will. (Flack and Adam on the other hand). Danny I like (again I don't find him attractive either ). He is frustrating (in season 1 he made too many mistakes to name) but he is passionate, vunerable, loyal, caring, he admits his mistakes when he makes them (to the gypsy cab divers son). They are lovable traits, traits that draw you to someone, so it makes up for the times where he is frustrating and goes against good advice, when he is cocky, or does something that is selfish.

All in all, it makes him human.

I'm not saying Lindsey couldn't be put out that a guy who feels responsible for the shooting and subsequent death of a 10 year old in his care forgot her birthday, or that he didn't want to go to lunch with her (whether he actually lied or not we'll never know). Because despite our best intentions of being understanding to a grieving friend, our own feelings are there still.

In all fairness to Danny, Danny has always been a flirt. He flirted with Maka and Aiden, I never took it and it was never shown in any other way than he was just a flirt (no actual interest beyond friends). So when he did the smae to Lindsey, I never thought for a moment TPTB would think to consider a relationship from that. So (my point is) I don't actually believe he is persuing Lindsey romantically I think he just feels bad and wants to be friends, but that is all based on opinion and how I read the script and the actors.

When Lindsey first joined I never disliked her. She was new, I gave her a chance and in Season 2 she had some good moments. I liked her in "Stealing Home" and I wish TPTB had kept going in that vain. Soon her character did feel a bit Mary-Sue thought but she was new is an already established cast and therefore still trying to find her feet. Her and Danny's little "flirting" scene's were sweet and minimal, but it felt like TPTB were trying to get me to like her by making her all things to all people, and soon I didn't know who she was. In Season 3 it all went down hill rapidly for me, her moods swung drastically from one episode to the next and her "Dark Secret" felt like they were trying to make me feel sorry for her. As I hadn't warmed to her by then, it was lost on me.

I'm sure fan's of Lindsey didn't feel like that.

Season 4 Lindsey wasn't too bad, she had her moments where she grated but actually early on she was ok, she neither annoyed me nor made me like her. But a main character shouldn't make me feel like that.

I agree, Lindsey isn't an endearing character, neither is Mac. I think us non-Lindsey-lovers appreciate that she probably isn't meant to be soft and caring, but it's that we don't know what she is supposed to be. For instance, she could be socially awkward and closed off (as she is shown) but funny with it (think Christina Yang on GA if you watch it).

She doesn't have a trait that I can connect with. And I think that's the overall problem for me, Lindsey isn't someone I would like or get on with. Fine I don't need to connect with every TV Character on a show I watch, there are some character written that you love to hate, but I don't think we are suppose to feel like that about her.

And that's where I'm left wanting.

Sorry I think I rambled there.

 

I don't really see why you always feel the need to point that out. Obviously it's an opinion. I don't see anyone who dislikes Lindsay telling those who don't they are wrong. They are giving reasons for why they think the way they do. Just because people don't share your opinion doesn't mean they aren't being "fair."

Also, if the impression you're getting is that people only like Danny because he's "cute," you're either reading very selectively or not comprehending what people are saying. People have given numerous reasons for why they like Danny that do not relate to his looks. To boil it down to something so superficial is insulting.

 

I would agree with you, except that I do recall a thread that was started where people talked about why Lindsay should stay, and the gauntlet was tossed down. "Prove it", someone demanded. Use canon arguments to prove why Lindsay should stay. And you couldn't say Lindsay was pretty or had nice hair because those weren't real reasons why she should stay.

That wasn't fair, especially considering some of the posts in here have been slightly less than academic ( i.e. Ms. Scrunchface).

Well, there have been at least two mentions of how Lindsay is just so mean to the "cute" or "lovely" Danny in the past 24 hours. I am not saying that all reasons for liking Danny are related to his looks, but honestly...there is not one negative thing said about Lindsay (or Ana) that cannot be attributed to Danny (or Carmine).

So what gives Danny the edge? If Danny were a female, do you think you'd feel the same way about his character? If Danny were slightly less attractive (fatter, puffy cheeks, comb-over) would you still be as inclined to excuse his behavior?

Possibly, yes. Probably...no.

Sammy11, could you please explain how Lindsay played a game with Danny's emotions? She was unprofessional to be sure, but I didn't see her leading him on in any way or toying with his attraction to her in order to get what she wanted. I am not trying to be disagreeable, but I don't see what you see, and I'd like to attempt to understand what you mean.

 

If you're talking about Boo, I didn't hear it. With every post you make I feel like you're screaming at me, and that I don't like. Tone down a bit.

Yeah, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't he sleep with Lindsay only once. What is there to repair with Lindsay? After they had sex there was no canon proof that it was something between them. Is sex proof of relationship?

I've already said that the physical aspect doesn’t count here. I am talking about the actions that deliver opinions. Danny’s actions were more than OK with Lindsay. Along the previous seasons he had offered her his help on numerous times and she just gave him the cold shoulder. And with that Lindsay’s inability to deal with mothers, but she can “give bad news to fathers all day” if that wasn’t said I would probably bought what she said. To me, Danny looked like an idiot during the whole 3rd season, and that bothered me, because he’s one of my favorite characters. (Adam rules, I just want to state that ).

Lindsay is allowed to act up after her friend’s deaths, that happened 15 years ago, but Danny is not allowed to grief the death of a child who was in his care that happened recently. (I’m talking about a month more or less). I am not saying that the way he’s doing it is good or bad, but it’s his way.

To conclude, I would like to ask you to stop saying that an “opinion” is wrong. There is no such thing, and you should expect that after a post or two, people won’t see “the light” you delivered.

ETA:

Please, show me the exact lines where it's said that Danny can get away with something because he's cute.

Just like PA said I feel offended by that statement.. Yes, I will give Danny a free pass because the actor who is playing him is hot. Show me the logic please.

Examples? OK. I'll give you three (I hope they're enough). First, Love Run Cold. There are mobile phones you know. You don't just leave a person standing like that like an idiot. Secondly, The Lying Game. She didn't have the courage to say goodbye to his face and left a card with "moo" written on it? Thirdly is Oedipus Hex. Danny offered her his help to deal with her past, but she refused.

Why is OK for Lindsay to grief the way she does, and for Danny is forbidden? Just because you dislike Danny?

 

From what I remember, when the person started the thread it was pointed out that more often than not people who say they like Lindsay talk about what they like about her but they don't use canon examples to support their statements. Someone can say that Lindsay is caring and self-sacrificing, but what is making them say that? It was also said that a lot of "pro-Lindsay" posts talked mostly about her looks or couldn't talk about her as a character without bringing up Danny.

Asking people to "prove it" wasn't literal, it was asking people to give actual examples from the show as to why they thought Lindsay was a great character and why they thought she was essential to the show. If people went around making statements like "Lindsay is selfish" without giving canon reasons the same thing would be asked of them. It's not a matter of "make me believe it" or "prove that you're right and I'm wrong," it's a matter of "what examples do you have to back up your opinion?"

Yes, people have commented on Anna Belknap not being able to convey emotion properly, and that's where the "scrunchface" came from, but that isn't the only thing they've said about her and they even explained why they used the term. Again, if people just went around calling her "Ms. Scrunchface" without explanation or said the only reason she should go is because of the "scrunchface" people would be asking for reasons other than a facial expression to support the opinion that she should, indeed, go.

People who like Danny openly criticize the character. A lot of us have agreed that he's a complete f*ck-up who we want to smack on occasion. Hell, Carmine Giovinazzo described Danny as "the go-to f*ck-up" in a recent interview with Kristine Huntley. What we've said is that despite his flaws we see him as an endearing character because of the way the writing and acting have portrayed him. We see him as realistic and complex. We've also said that the writing and acting have not portrayed Lindsay as endearing or sympathetic. We see her as selfish and inconsistent. I've said it before. I don't think the audience is supposed to dislike Lindsay. If she were meant to be the awkward country girl who doesn't fit in and has no social skills due to suffering her tragedy the rest of the team wouldn't have welcomed her with open arms. She wouldn't get passes for unprofessional behavior. Her superiors wouldn't have reached out and tried to help her emotionally. Danny wouldn't have shown an interest in her and chased her like a love sick puppy.

This has been talked about in other threads. If Danny were female there is the definite possibility that he wouldn't be liked as much. Women are often more judgmental of other women than they are of men. I'm not saying that's right, but it's true. However, if I didn't like Carmine as an actor or I felt that the writing for him was consistently bad I wouldn't like Danny no matter how hot I thought Carmine is. Yes, I'm a heterosexual female and I notice Carmine's looks and sometimes comment on them. But good looking actors are a dime a dozen and looks aren't enough reason to like a character and/or the performance. Does it happen? Yes. But I think many people on this board have stated enough reasons/examples to show that they are not unfairly judging Lindsay just because she's a woman or are completely enamored with Danny just because he's attractive.

 

Canon according to who? Your version of canon doesn't fit my version of canon, and my canon doesn't fit my best friend's version of canon. Even with it being on screen, we all see things differently.

For example, let's take a recent example. In "All in the Family", I found Lindsay to be very supportive of Danny. She showed concern because she couldn't get a hold of him. She asked Flack to go look for him while she covered Danny's shift.

I felt that it was very nice of her to do. People who don't like Lindsay thought that she was not showing much support, that she showed signs of being self-centered and that she didn't do enough for Danny.

Who's version of canon is correct?

And I disagree with you. I don't think Carmine's acting is all that wonderful myself. Yes, he has his moments, but to me I find Danny dull and just irritating. It's in the acting, it's in the writing, and it's just the over-all character.

You're being very careful to use the words "We feel" or "I feel" now, but most of the time opinions about Lindsay are trotted out as a sort of Gospel Truth, and woe to those who dare to disagree with it. You may disagree with it, but it definitely feels that way to me more often than not.

And I disagree with your take on Lindsay's character; I don't think she's supposed to be entirely embraced by the audience. That doesn't mean though that her co-workers wouldn't try to help her, or that they wouldn't have embraced her.

She definitely hasn't been given "passes" for unprofessional behavior. She got a pretty stern smackdown from Stella about leaving the crime scene, a stern lecture from Mac about coming up with theories, and most recently, a softer but no less stern dressing down about leaving evidence out.

See the difference in canon? I don't think she's been given a pass; you do. And I do think Danny would have run after her, because I think he likes to be the hero and 'fix' things for women.

Given that many objections surround Lindsay's relationship with Danny, and that most (if not all of them) also are attracted to Danny, I think it is in fact fair to say that Danny's prettiness has as much to do with people liking him AND for them disliking Lindsay.

I know we won't agree on that, which is fine. We don't have to. It's just that I noticed a while back that Lindsay was being blamed for Danny losing his fire. Seeing as Carmine is responsible for making Danny believable, I don't see how this can be blamed on Lindsay or Ana. This supports my theory that it is Danny's looks that makes him so popular, followed by his complexity as a character.

Although I don't find Danny complex since I can't find any real motivation for his actions half the time and -- that's another story altogether.

 

Neither is correct. They are both interpretations of canon events. What was talked about in the WLMS thread was that, at the time, it seemed many people who liked Lindsay and felt she was vital to the show weren't giving reasons/examples. The point was made that many people were commenting only on her looks and her character in relation to Danny. If people were going to be posting about WLMS, it was said that there should be reasons beyond her looks and Danny as to why she was important to the show. It wasn't about who was right or wrong. It was about people making statements without backing them up with examples/reasons.

The "I feel" or "we feel" is usually used when people who don't like Lindsay are being accused of saying they are right and everyone is wrong. Just because the people who don't like Lindsay aren't afraid to speak their minds and actually debate with people doesn't mean they think their opinions are the "Gospel Truth." A lot of the time it is understood that people are expressing their own opinion unless they blatantly state that something is fact or say they are trying to speak for others. You obviously aren't afraid to speak your mind and debate with people, so does that mean you are trying to spread the "Gospel Truth and woe to those who dare to disagree with it?"

Obviously I see the difference in canon or I wouldn't have explained what "prove it" meant in the WLMS thread. You've repeatedly responded to me in various threads like I need to have things explained to me on an elementary level just because I'm not saying what you want to hear. It's insulting, so please refrain from it in the future.

That's not being fair. That's assuming the people on this board aren't intelligent enough to care about anything beyond Danny's looks and are immature enough to be jealous of a fictional character. It makes sense if people don't like Lindsay and like Danny they wouldn't like them paired together and that they would talk about it. Just like it would make sense if people who don't like Danny and like Lindsay wouldn't like them paired together and would talk about it. Oversimplifying what people have posted about in a thoughtful, well composed manner is insulting.

Some people feel that Danny's character was changed, by the writers and PTB, to accomodate the relationship with Lindsay. That has nothing to do with Carmine's performance. Someone can do a great job with material that is not up to par. (example Melina Kanakaredes in "All Access") Anna can't be blamed for changes in Danny's character, but the character of Lindsay is created by the writers. If Danny's character has been perceived to have been changed to be a prop for Lindsay, then one can blame Lindsay for bringing about the change. If Lindsay was a better character Danny wouldn't have had to be changed so drastically to fit with her or prop up her character.

 

Even canon relies on the perception of individuals. What is more, it's impossible to see everything on screen, we have to rely on our own imaginations to fill in the blanks and the direction we take with that generally depends on our interpretation of the overall characterisation of the individual characters. A good example of this is the scene in Child's Play where Lindsay approaches Danny and he walks away. Some people believe that she didn't follow through with talking to him because we didn't see it on screen, others believe that of course she would have talked to him because they were in a relationship so how could she not?

Personally, I think the way it was portrayed showed her approaching him but coming from a place of uncertainty. She's not used to dealing with other's grief, after all she's avoided it on any sort of emotional level imo. Now, here she is unable to avoid it to a certain extent because it's happening to someone she cares about. She turns to Mac for advice.

Certainly for me, the impression I got from this scene (irrespective of what I *think* Lindsay would have done), she eventually followed him. Not to get too technical but she walked through one door into the morgue then walked out in the opposite direction, the same direction Danny had gone after Mac had given her the 'tell him you're not very good at this' pep talk. If they wanted to show her as not having made the effort to talk to him then why not have her go back the way she came in?

Another issue is the whole 'one night stand' thing. Some people here seem absolutely certain that was all it was. Others seem absolutely certain they were in a committed, monogomous relationship. I suspect it fall somewhere in between. Sure, Lindsay initiated the sex in SD but she'd given him so many mixed signals that it really was her call imo to take it to the next level. It's not surprising if Danny was still unsure of her at that point, after all she had given him the run around. I don't see her as 'jumping' him inappropriately in either SOOH or SD. She was responding to his previous declaration of liking her, and his demonstration of that through his actions. She was free from the constraints of her past and able to respond where she previously hadn't felt able to.

Danny's declaration of being glad it happened (and Lindsays agreement with that) when they woke up the next morning indicated that things would continue between them. You don't wake up from a one night stand saying you're happy it happened, you get the hell out of there as quickly as possible (or get the other person out of there as quickly as possible if it's your place). If Danny regretted it happening then the wisest cours of action would likely have been to just wake her up and send her on her way when it was time to go to work, not leave her in his apartment while he took her shift. Equally, him taking her shift, while a nice thing to do, doesn't indicate a declaration of true love or intent towards commitment. It doesn't prove he loves her, it proves he's a nice guy.

 

I'm sorry, but saying that you're glad that sex happened =/= let's start an exclusive relationship. Danny is just a nice guy and those kinda things are usually what you say in order not to offend the other person.

Call me crazy, but canon isn't what it is shown on screen? Again, I think that Kimmy's statement that canon is not fannon should be applied here. It's not canon that Lindsay talked to Danny in Child's Play, even more, after her speech in Right Next Door, I understand that they didn't talk, because Lindsay accused Danny of taking matters in his own hands.

That is just insulting. In other words you are saying that we are unable to make difference between Danny and Carmine, which is absolutely bullsh*t. Like many others have said, all the long, coherent and intelligent posts that rely only on the character's personality are being blatantly ignored. The many objections we have about Lindsay circle around Danny because that is the only reason Lindsay is in the show. Everything she does, revolves around Danny.

It's the same way, like you hate Danny and you think that Carmine's acting skills are lacking something, it's the same way we feel about Anna. I think she doesn't portray Lindsay in the right way, just as you feel that Carmine is not doing a great job by portraying Messer. It's all about perception, but coming in here saying that we dislike Lindsay just because she is in a supposed relationship with Danny and that we hate that because we think Danny is cute means that you have ignored everything we have said in the WLMG threads. We didn't reach 3000+ posts by saying "Danny is cute, Lindsay must go", that was never ever implied, and I am convinced that it'll never be.

 

I didn't say anything about an exclusive relationship. I haven't got a clue if that's the case or not. But equally I don't know if it was or wasn't a one night stand. To me, knowing what has happened before and having a grasp of the characters involved, it is most likely that it wasn't just a one night stand. I don't know it wasn't, you don't know it was. And yep, Danny is a nice guy but he's not stupid and his actions that morning implied he had feelings for her, the type of feelings that generally don't tend to make up a one night stand.

Yes, canon is what's shown on the screen, either through it actually happening or it being referred to in front of our eyes. However, there is also a certain degree of poetic licence where tptb can imply things and hope that the viewer follows the thread they have lain. That's not canon, that (to me) is directionality. If you look at the black and white of what is 'known' to be true without looking at the implied then you will get a completely different view than if you look at both. Canon cannot be argued, directionality through implication can (and obviously is). I just don't get how you can completely ignore the implied as if it hasn't happened.

We didn't see Lindsay talk to Danny but it was implied that she was going to try, following her conversation with Mac. We didn't see Danny and Lindsay talk after RND but it has been implied, by Danny saying they should and their behaviour towards each other changing since then. We don't know that it happened but equally we don't know it didn't. My view is that it could have happened and I'd be surprised if it didn't, others seem to believe that if they haven't seen it then it absolutely, categorically hasn't happened. I just don't get that, it's too narrow for my way of thinking.

 

I'm not a mod or anything so sorry if I shouldn't be saying this but...

Girls (or guys, I don't know), chill out a bit.

I know it's a subject that stirs emotions but posts are getting a bit aggressive, people are feeling insulted by each other. I don't think this is the way it should be...

 

I'm sorry but no, it doesn't. At least not in my opinion anyways, which is as follows...

Subtext relies on the interpretation of individuals who turn it into Perceived 'Canon' - the means by which shows make you emotionally invested in what you are watching and thus make you keep watching. The idea of shows is that people don't all get the same thing from them - it personalises the experience.

Perceived Canon should not be confused with Genuine Canon, which is nothing more than the established actions, events or dialogue, ergo - the facts. Percieved 'Canon' shared en masse is Fanon. No matter how large a group of believers in the same interpretation of events is, anything based on subtext is still nothing more than a divergence in opinion of what canon is based on a difference of perception.

Just my £0.02 worth...

Amen to that.

 

Now you really gave me a headache!

Wow, now that I fought my way through all the posts, I really feel the need to post again.

I may have said it before but I'll say it again, I started to watch S2 with the intentions not to like Lindsey because she replaced Aiden (and I loved her!). Anyway, I watched the first view episodes and what happened? I found her kinda cute. Sometimes really cute (and that coming from a lesbian - so although Danny's attractive that's not my reason for disliking Lindsey?

Well, where was I? Yes, Lindsey and why I don't like her. She was cute but she confused me. The whole dark secret thing? I didn't know where she was going with that. And I certainly didn't like how it all played out. I'm not an expert concerning acting but I really thought the court scene wasn't well done. I wanted to feel compassion but it just wouldn't come to me. And what I really really really didn't understand, why would she want to kiss Danny just after the probably worst day of her life (reliving her past again)? Did went all way too fast for me - again probably TPTB's fault.

I liked your argument (sorry, I don't recall who made it!) that she was a flawed character with problems to bond with people. Now if that's so than why does everybody act like she's the best thing that could happen to the team? If she was really supposed to be like that, I would probably like her character a bit more.

I haven't seen any episode form S4 yet, so I can't comment on her behaviour there.

In the end, my conclusion is, that if she wouldn't be reduced to being Danny's love interest, I'd like her a lot more.

I really loved her at the beginning, she was tough, smart and then she was with Danny. Well, what I'm saying, give her a story line that doesn't involve Danny, give her a life, hell, make her edgy, just get her away from Danny, let her be her own woman!