I find this discussion even more interesting than the episode -- and I liked the episode. I like that Mac treated the women -- both of the women -- as the murder suspects they were. The suspect/murderer/attempted murderer were all sympathetic and the victims were unsympathetic but that doesn't mean that their murders were any less reprehensible than any other murders. What happened to the women was tragic, but what they did was wrong. I found it extremely creepy that the Amber believed that killing people was a "gift" that she could give to others. That she somehow "freed" the victims of what happened by murdering those who were acquitted of the crimes. She saw herself as an avenging angel rather than someone who enjoyed killing people (which she clearly did). I bet there would have been a lot less sympathy for the killers if, rather than being caught on their first murder spree, they managed to kill several people and were caught only when they finally killed someone who was actually innocent of the crime they were acquitted of. The real tragedy, as Mac pointed out, wasn't in the attacks on the women or, even, in the killing/attempted killing of the men, but in the fact that the women lost all sense of conscience -- right and wrong became a matter of person desire and they became like the men that attacked them in the first place.
I agree that there definitely would have been less sympathy for the killers if they'd murdered someone who turned out to be innocent. I think Amber took the feelings of helplessness that came from being raped and channelled them into rage. It's not the healthiest way to go, but it is understandable in the sense that I think it's natural to feel that way. I guess in the ep I would have preferred to see Stella (or Danny, who was clearly more sympathetic) confront Amber, because my gut reaction as a woman was to say, "Fuck you" to Mac and his righteous attitude. And maybe that was supposed to be my reaction--I do admirean ep that can grab me on an emotional level. I don't hate Mac for his attitude, but I do think it's a kind of narrow-mindedness. This wasn't someone killing for greed or to get ahead, but someone who took justice into her own hands. As a society, people can't condone that, but as individuals it's possible to at least get where they're coming from. I don't think they became like the men (they weren't hurting innocent people), but they did of course step outside the law and take justice into their own hands. I think Mac tries to see things in black and white, what the evidence says is all there is, but it dehumanizes him at times. I don't think that's a bad trait--it's who he is and it's part of his character--but it does at times make me like him less, and this episode was one of those instances.
Wasted. I've watched it yesterday. It's probably the most sympathetic I've ever seen him with a suspect.
I totally agree that there should have been sympathy for what happened to the women but there should be none for what they did. You can sympathize for people who were abused as children but there should be no sympathy when those people go on to molest other children. Rage is not only understandable and natural but, IMO, extremely healthy reaction to what happened. I'm a big believer in natural catharsis that comes from safely expressing anger and rage. However, killing people you don't know because they were found innocent of a crime similar to the one committed against you is neither natural or healthy. I thought that 'Fuck you' was exactly what Amber said to Mac -- well, without actually saying the words. And liked that about the character. The complete unrepentance for the murder. The problem with having Danny or Stella do the interview is that their sympathy would have removed any condemnation of the murder. By having Mac's "narrow-minded" view of sticking to the facts -- that Amber killed someone she didn't know for purely personal reasons -- the show stayed on this side of a theme that condoned vigilante murders. I think it had to be written that way in order for it to have balance. Interesting. I think we have different views of Mac, here. IMO, he does understand where they are coming from. I never got the impression that he didn't know what happened to them or that he didn't sympathize for the crime(s) that they were victims of. Of course, he doesn't let that knowledge or sympathy keep him from condemning their crimes. I don't see that as narrow-minded. Ah, but we don't know for a fact that the men were guilty. We know that the dead guy was considered guilty by most of the people on the show (including the CSIs) and that the other guy was a completely unlikeable human being, but they were both found not guilty of the crimes they were accused of. We assume they were guilty, but it's only an assumption. The show never stated what the truth was.
Well, I've re-watched the episode and I noticed that Flack and Stella both seem disgusted with the murder victim. He was acquitted -- and this is nit-picked on your post, Partly, but being acquitted is not the same as being found innocent -- of not only rape but attempted murder. I don't condone what the women were doing, but the comparison of an abused child going off and molesting other children is not a totally fair comparison to what actually happened. The women were not choosing randomly; they didn't go after people who were simply acquitted of violent crimes. They chose two victims who were acquitted on what appear to be technicalities. It's the good and bad part of our justice system. What allows innocent people to go free also allows guilty people to be released back into society. The dead woman and the one who annoys Flack (I still can't remember their names) saw a major injustice and attempted to right it, although as a society their actions cannot be accepted as just. I understand this. And with the second viewing I think that the characters weren't quite as harsh as I first believed them to be. Stella did show understanding to what Fern was going through. I was a bit surprised at Lindsay's reaction to the whole situation, but again, being the witness to a murder and actually having your physical person are two totally different things. And as much as I despise murder, I admit I am fully rooting that the woman who is a murderer gets off on a technicality. There would be something poetic about that.
Actually, in our system of justice no one is ever found innocent, they are merely declared "not guilty". It is very possible to be innocent and not be able to prove innocence. Which is why our justice system, you have to be proven guilty. Anytime a person is declared "not guilty" -- for whatever reason -- they are "acquitted" of the crime. In a trial there are only two verdicts: guilty or not guilty -- conviction or acquittal. There is also, I suppose, the option of dropping the charges or mistrial. In those two cases, the person could be brought up on the same charges again in the future. And even more poetic -- if she would be killed by a vigilante killer who was targeting murderers who get off on a technicality.
Like Surreal_44 said, I think those things aren't really equatable. Molesting children and killing rapists are not in the same league, not at all. I agree that the former shouldn't get sympathy on any level, period. I definitely don't buy the whole "but the killer/rapist was abused as a child!" defense. However, this is a different case: it's vigilante justice. If people who were molested as children killed the people molesting them, that would be equivalent. And I'd probably have sympathy for them too. The implication was that they got off on technicalities, which had to be infuriating to the women who were victimized by them or men like them. I liked that, too, and I feel like she did, but are we as viewers supposed to basically echo her? It's possible we are, in which case it's an interesting choice, and one I quite like. It's daring to have the audience sympathize with a suspect saying "fuck you" to the main character on the show. True, and I agree that's probably why that decision was made. I don't think it was a bad one, and I'm glad Danny was at least there to provide the sympathy angle. Many times I feel he's the voice of the audience because he is the most emotional character. I guess it's possible to read his attitude as knowing where they're coming from and just not caring. Either way, it made me like him less and more at the same time. Less because I think he's a narrow-minded ass who can't see past his own rigid code of right and wrong in a case where there are definitely shades of grey, and more because well, it's good characterization. He's got his principles and he sticks to them, even if at times it makes him an ass. It makes him a more believable character, if not a more likable one. It heavily implied that they were guilty, and I'd go so far as to say the characters assumed they were--certainly Stella seemed to with Fern's rapist and Danny with the guy he questioned. Agreed, and they chose people who were acquitted on technicalities of particularly heinous violent crimes. Agreed, and I think that's what makes this episode so interesting. There isn't an easy answer--there's simply the law, which is what the CSIs have to follow. But I found Amber, arrogance and all, more sympathetic than Mac and Lindsay in this ep (I name those two because they were the ones touting the "it's all about the evidence in this case for this crime and that's it" company line). I thought Stella's reactions were on target. Lindsay shows surprisingly little empathy for anyone--the only time she ever reacts personally is when a crime reminds her of the one back in Montana. She's very much like Mac in her rigid view of right and wrong. I feel the same way. Great discussion, btw! I thank you both for it. It's nice to really be able to delve into an ep and discuss it like this.
Ok, I just watched it. In regard to the whole 'Mac vs Amber' Justice issue I think that Mac does come across as righteous in that little speech he gives to Amber. I admire that he has a high/strong moral code, but I think that sometimes blinds him to certain gray areas in regards to justice. The legal system failed Fern, Joanna and Amber, and let two repulsive men walk free. I can understand why Amber killed that guy but I don't think she was 'right' to do it. Mac and his version of justice do look flawed here, but Amber's version of justice is flawed too. In fact, I think she's a lot like Mac - she sees no grey areas in her version of justice either. The man raped her and was released, he was 'garbage' and he deserved to die - that's quite a narrow-minded version of justice too! Ultimately, I think in our society, justice is something which individuals interpret in different ways, and these different interpretations - Mac's and Amber's for e.g. - all have their flaws. I like that both characters have a very strong sense and conviction of what justice is. Mac may seem like an ass, but Amber's arrogance in assuming she has the right to take another person's life, even though that person was a rapist scumbag, makes her not much better IMO. I did like that Danny seemed to sympathize with her. He does have a more flexible notion of justice than either Mac OR Amber. I actually think Mac sympsthized with her as a victim, but didn't like that she used her anger at having been a victim to commit a crime, and that's where his speech came from. Ultimately, I think this episode explored a complex issue with maturity and insight, and I think the range of discussion and opinions it has raised proves this, and also shows that different people have different ideas of justice - some swing to Amber's side, others to Mac's, others hover in the middle. OK, so after all the heavy stuff up above, time for analysis of the rest of the ep. - Loved the hairspray scene between Mac and Stella. -Liked that Mac knew about bullfighting. -I don't like Kendall. Adam, sweetie, you can do better. And you don't need a diet! You're lovely the way you are. *gives Adam a chocolate cake* -Loved the Mac/Adam scenes. -Sid, please don't get me anything for Christmas if half-digested stomach contents is your idea of a nice gift. :lol: -Sid + Hawkes = fun. :lol: -Loved the whole Flack/Angell flirty scene. Flack's sooooooo cute. Aw, he has no game? Well, like with Mac, my theory on that is that he's so hot he dosen't need any game. :devil: -Amber pissed me off in the Flack/Angell scene too. I wish they hadn't made her so arrogant. She was much more sympathetic at the end. Finally, Mac, I'm a little annoyed with ya for giving that speech, but I do like that you have such a high moral code. I still love ya. And you too, Flack even though you were mean to Fern. And you, Danny, for being sympathetic to Amber. Ah, I love all the men on NY, I'm a CSI NY slut, and I love it. :devil:
I think you sum it up really well--that's pretty much how I feel about Mac, Amber and the ep in general. Mac and Amber were both two sides of the same coin, both just as rigid in their beliefs, and both had valid points. And Danny just proved once again that he's the heart of the show: he sympathizes, even though he does what the law dictates.
Ok I was just rewatching Commuted Sentences and noticed that Kendall was wearing a NYPD badge (in the muffin scene) I just thought she was just a lab tech like Adam! Does anyone else know more about it??