"The Case of the Cross-Dressing Carp" Discussion *SPOILERS*

Re: "The Case of the Cross-Dressing Carp" Discussion *SPOILE

This episode is not one my favorites. I give it about a 7/10. I did love Greg in this one, he seemed to be back to his goofy self. I loved the scenes w/Cath's mom...The A case was pretty interesting though. I am neutral on the whole GSR proposal thing, so it really didn't do anything for me, but I liked the way it was handled.

 

Re: "The Case of the Cross-Dressing Carp" Discussion *SPOILE

I liked the episode not only for the gsr scenes but also the cases. But what the heck I loved the "proposal" scene! Its so like Grissom to say it so offhandedly, and I loved Sara's reaction and that she said "yes" to Grissom. And when they tried to kiss despite the beekeeper outfits... priceless. First thought that came into my head when I saw that was, "Haha Geeks in love."

 

Re: "The Case of the Cross-Dressing Carp" Discussion *SPOILE

Oh yeah, love the scene afterwards the proposal scene: Sara looking happy, and Grissom daydreaming in his office. Love it when he got all defensive when Catherine stopped by his office.

 

Re: "The Case of the Cross-Dressing Carp" Discussion *SPOILE

To me, from start to finish, this episode screamed Erin Brokovich. I got that vibe from the very beginning with the various shots of the water, going through the sewer, into the lake, etc. Maybe if Cath starts a crusade, we'll have the real Erin Brokovich appear in an upcoming episode as herself.

Loved the return of Lily. I'm glad that she & her daughter seem to be getting along again. Catherine seems to have accepted Sam as her father. I loved the line she gave to the guy at the site - when he said something about these places not being built by saint. She said - "no, it was built by my father". The flashbacks of previous scenes with Sam made me quite sad. I miss Scott Wilson. He created a great, complex character.

I was kind of surprised by Catherine immediately handing off the case. Do you think Gil & Sara's whole farce of a secret relationship and the consequences of the "conflict of interest" issues it's created have increased her awareness of these types of issues?

Loved Greg's enthusiasm with all of the old Vegas history. The return of the Sara/Greg interaction in recent episodes has been very welcome. I was kind of surprised that Sara was as familiar with Lily as it seemed she was. To me, it indicates that Catherine and Sara are much closer/friendlier with each other than we get to see in the episodes. Here it was as if Sara is around both Lily and Lindsey (remember Sara's statement in Weeping Willows for Cath to tell Lindsey "hey" for her?) quite often. I really miss the Cath/Sara interaction. I believe TPTB have tried to keep the two ladies from being in the same scenes in the past two years in order to make their pet on-screen romance work. I don't believe they really know how to write Catherine & Sara as good friends on screen. They've always relied on the angst between the ladies as their main point. I've never believed that the two characters would be as bitchy to each other as we've been led to believe.

Nick & Warrick working together was nice. Gil seemed to disappear, until they needed their requisite two minutes of needless GSR that seems to appear in each episode.

Hodges was his annoying, snarky self. I loved the Wendy/Nick scene. It was cute how she knew what he was doing outside her lab. Speaking of the lab rats - where has Bobby been? We've had a few cases that needed bullet analysis, but it's been others taking care of it. This time it was Warrick.

Sara's reaction at the site kind of confused me. Ronnie mentioned something about a possible Indian artifact. Sara's immediate response was "everyone stop right now. Don't move. We may be on an Indian burial site."

Oh, and can't forget - "Do I know how to turn you on or what?" :devil: Great scene between two actors that don't get to share their natural chemistry the way they used to. When this scene played out, I knew right away that this episode was written by Jacqueline Hoyt. It had the same flirty, comfortable vibe as the one back in season 6 Spellbound(also written by Hoyt), when Catherine comes in to Gil's office and talks about her upcoming vacation.

 

Re: "The Case of the Cross-Dressing Carp" Discussion *SPOILE

Now that I've seen the whole episode more than once, I feel like I can form a real opinion on it.

The first time around I didn't see the Erin Brochavich comparisons, but after everyone saying it, it was all I could see the second time through.

It's really strange and difficult to watch what Brian Towne underwent. People thought him strange, a transexual, a weirdo, all because a hormone imbalance he couldn't control due to lack of knowledge of the contents of his tap made his body form differently. Truly, we don't think about what damage our words and reactions can cause, sometimes.

I mean, I know it's completely fictional, and they implied that the 18-year-old was undergoing other stresses in his daily life, but he knew he was different, but seemed to keep going. He knew that he was working with Paul Cyden to make a difference, and perhaps, get some help. Maybe, if the whistle were blown, he could get hormone-replacement therapy to try to correct what he saw as a horrible malformation of his tissue.

When exposed, he lashed out against his own flesh, and then hanged himself. It's hearbreaking, because, it could have turned out so differently. Yes, it's a television show, and I suspected from the beginning that all was not as it seemed, but words and reactions really cut deep. "Sticks and stones can break my bones, but words can never hurt me."

My mother taught me that when I was a little girl and I was teased for my nose or my late-blooming status. I would repeat them, but some of the most horrible memories I still have are of cruel words. Words spoken without thought sometimes have more affect than any physical, tangible weapon.

The mother, desperate and confused, lashed out at the man she thought took her son. Though there was premeditation, it feels like a complete gut-reaction, and while I wanted to hug her, I also wanted to hold her back.

I agree with many others who say the scene with her identifying the body was one of the most honest CSI has ever done. Somehow, the imagery of a mother losing her hair to chemo treatment gently stroking her dead son's hair struck a cord within me. There was a sweetness to it, as though, for a moment, she forgot her son was gone. It's that fussy nature some mothers have, that can overtake the grief for a moment. The actress played it beautifully. I felt as though I could see elements of my own mother there.

The direction was really fun this week, constantly highlighting water from the opening shot of the giant fountain, to the water where Brian died, to the water his mother drank as she spoke to Brass and Warrick. There was also a lot of attention paid to wedding rings. We saw closeups on Larry and his boss' rings as they sat in the interrogation room. I'm still debating the symbolism there, and whether or not it was a tease tied into the Gil/Sara romance.

See, I liked Larry playing with his, as though toying with the committment, tempted to pull it off and put it on at will. But, the boss' remained in place. I don't know. I'm still searching for the meaning on that one.

Bringing back Old Vegas and Old Vegas Greg was an absolute blast. I thought Kiss Kiss, Bye Bye was a brilliant episode back in the day, allowing us to enter another time and place without losing sight of the show. Again, we were there, in old Vegas. I liked the attention to detail with the tower of the Rampart remaining incomplete at the time of the party, allowing the logic of the reporter's demise to follow without me blinking an eye.

I have to say, I wasn't a big fan of the Catherine/Mom scene at the beginning. I've enjoyed both actresses in their interactions before, but I think the script was weak on this one. It just felt a little like exposition without real dialogue, at parts.

But, boy, was I proud of Catherine handing off the case. When we started the season and we were all debating the ramafications of GSR and whether the team would split, I stepped forward to announce that unlike my season 5 feelings towards the character, I felt Cath had come a long way, and would make a fine supervisor, now. I stand by that assertion after this episode. She really proved that she's grown and developed and she's doing what's right for the case, and setting aside that personal drive for answers. It can be killer, and sometimes it's hard to let go, but she successfully assessed the situation and passed the case off to her friend, who she trusts to do this right.

And I loved Sara wanting it to be an Indian Gravesite. Somehow, it reminded me of the gorilla way back when. The character just has this deepset respect for the dead. It was hilighted last week when she pushed forward, proving that she cared just as much about the death of a "bum" as a millionare. She really wanted for this to be something more than a murder, something more than the same-old, same-old.

And Greg saw an opportunity to feed his obsession, and be helpful. He entered his friend's crime scene, offering verbal help, validating and crossing out theories as they sprung up with excitement bubbling within him at the prospect of standing atop a piece of Vegas history. His exuberance pushed the story forward in many ways, because you knew he was invested it in, you cared more. At least, I did.

He wasn't just trying to figure it out because it was his job, but because he was passionate about it. He wanted to know what was so important, this man wouldn't let go of it. He wanted to know where it all began and why it happened. He's invested obvious time in unearthing this buried Vegas legacy, and you can tell when he takes Cath's mom on his arm that he's found a great new friend and ally in his quest to grow in his understanding of a time he can never touch, but that fascinates him to no end.

As for Ronnie, I didn't find her nearly as annoying as last week, but I think I'm not a fan of the actress' style. Please allow me to explain: I often don't "click" with certain actors' styles of performing. There's just a barrier there between me and the character, and all I see is the actress. There's something about the actress' style that doesn't personally connect with me. She's not a BAD actress at all! I've seen some terrible actresses guest on TV lately, and she's not one of them. I just don't personally click with her style of performance.

Hodges was predictably obsessed with his own ends with Sara's project to isolate isotopes (too cool, by the way), but he was still so eager to please Gil with those carp. And, of course, Gil was eager to dig into those carp and figure out the experiment. This isn't meant in a sexual way, but Catherine does know what Gil likes. She knew it would peak his interest, and that he'd be more than happy to take those fish off her hands.

Nick and Warrick had good roles, but my favourite moment between them is the exchange of "Tuscon. Ah, yes, the capitol of Texas." For some reason, that little moment just had me rolling. I love the ease with which these two act together. Sure, I know they're friends in real life, but there's an honest chemistry. They compliment each other beautifully, and that scene, even as they displayed what they believed happened to poor Brian, was all the more compelling for their ability to work off of one another believably.

I have to say, I loved the episode all around. I really did. Of course, I had a blast with the Gil/Sara proposal, though the end made me cringe.

Please, allow me to explain: I think there are a million and one layers to this scene. Two pointed out by others that I will address because I like them are the fact that Sara's in white, and the comparison to "Butterflied" with Gil touching Sara's bare hands rather than there being a barrier between them of latex.

But, I'll start from the top. I just wanted to make sure I gave credit for those two observations to the rightful people! I don't remember their names at the moment, but I want to make sure you know they werne't me! I'm just expanding on them, if you will.

I love that Sara came in to see Gil, coming inside his world. I know that sounds goofy, but there's always been a lot of symbolism between these two and doorways. At the end of "Play with Fire," Sara stood in the doorway of his office, trying to reach out to him, to get through to him, and he turned down her dinner invitation, stating he didn't know what to do about "this." In season 5, in "Nesting Dolls," he finally crossed her doorway into her world for the first time. We've seen them in each other's homes now, with Sara walking through the doorway at the end of "Way to Go," but this moment is special.

He's a bug guy. He's never excluded Sara from his obsession. He even gave her a book on the subject for Christmas one year, as we learned in "XX." He even sent her a bug, for goodness sake! But, here, she's entering his world, and there's no resistance. She steps in, dressed from head to toe, and he calls out to her. They play, they joke. Before getting down to talking, they exchange a hello that's specialized and personalized, and all their own for that moment.

She's honestly interested in what he's doing, and she wants to learn, and she wants to be a part of his life in this way, and he welcomes her in, inviting her to take off the glove. She comments that she trusts him. I noticed this immediately, and it can be seen as a throwback to the shaving scene, when Sara asked Gil if he trusted her. He answered, "Intimately." I think she trusts him the same way. At first, she seems leery of taking off the glove, but she exposes her good hand to the bees, and he can't help but be proud and filled with joy as he watches her watching the bee on her hand.

It's like watching someone discover something new, and you were hoping they'd like it, and they did. For me and my husband, it was "The Court Jester." There was a particular moment in the movie that I about died at. I just couldn't stop laughing when it happened, and my husband's face swelled with pride as he smiled at me, laughing with me. At the time, I thought nothing of it, but he later told me that he knew if I liked that moment, I was the girl for him. It was two years into our relationship, and it was wonderful.

I feel like this was Gil's "Court Jester" moment. He just looked at her experiencing something he'd hoped she would like, and he saw her enjoying it. There was just a click in his head as he looked, first at her hand, then at her radiant face regarding the creature crawling across her skin. He purses his lips and considers the thought that entered his brain.

In the past, he would have put the stops on that thought, would have held it inside, would have kept it from entering the audible world for fear of the reaction, and I do think that he's afraid. But, he's grown. He's changed. For better or worse, he's adapted. He almost lost her at the begininng of the season. He almost lost every chance to talk to her and tell her how he felt, so I think he's not holding back nearly as much as he once would have. He puts it out there, and she just looks at him, her face filled with shock and amazement.

Her pulse quickens as adrenaline rushes through her, and the bee freaks. Gil apologizes, recognizing that her body change was due to his proposal. He busies himself taking care of her...

Taking care of her. That struck me so hard the first time I watched this scene. He's standing there taking care of her.

Yes, he's holding her hand, an obvious juxtaposition to the latex gloves comment of "Butterflied." But, more than that, to me, he's taking care of her. He's cradling her hand.

See, on her own, she'd try to pick it out, like she's tried, in the past, to pick out what she didn't like. She'd try it on her own, to pull whatever horrible thing in her past was crawling in her skin away. But, she'd inadvertently release the venom into her bloodstream, causing her even more pain. In this moment, Gil's holding her hand. She's not alone. Not only that, he's the one taking care of the pain, taking care of the thing she wants to cast out.

It's her job only to be still and to trust, and he doesn't betray that trust. He coaxes the offending thorn/stinger out of her skin. He gets caught up in the moment, worried about her, but his thoughts return to the proposal.

Sara's mind never left it. She giggles when she's stung, as if proclaiming, "Silly me! You propose and I freak out and get stung!" Then, it's that moment, which I remember clearly from my husband's proposal of, "He's serious." She watches him, blinking rapidly, her brain going through a thousand moments and days, the good and the bad, and she's staring at this man, here, and he's holding her hand, and he's caring for her, and he's showing love the best way he knows how.

Any other woman might laugh at the proposal, pass it off as idle words, but Sara's been through it all with Gil. She knows how guarded he can be, and how he tries not to say things without thinking them through, without understanding the implications of what's coming out of his mouth. We've rarely seen him lose his cool, but when he does, he really loses it.

In this moment, he's saying what he feels, and after the sting, he's afraid of what she'll say. He's petrified that he's put himself on the line and she's going to reject him. Though he's come a long way since "Butterflied," the lingering fear remains that it's all temporary. In the traditional world, marriage symbolizes a sort of permanence, so long as human life allows. He's telling her, essentially, that he wants her for as long as they're both alive. He's proclaiming to her that she's the one for him, and he's hoping desperately that she feels the same way.

When he starts to bumble about his words, he can't look at her. He doesn't want to look at her face to face if she rejects him, and she feels it. She seeks out his face, eager for him to meet her eyes when she says, "Yes." She knows the hold fear has on him, and wants to allay that fear with loving eye contact. Even when he finally meets her eyes, it's as though he's in a trance.

And then, Sara utters the words that really hit it on the nail for me. "Let's do it."

These words struck me so hard the first time around, and it wasn't until someone brought up "Butterflied" that I realized why.

"I couldn't do it."

Gil said that. He recognized that Sara was someone he could care about. She offered him a new life, and he couldn't do it. Essentially, he's offering her a new life with this proposal. It's a new status and a new label and a new committment. Yes, they're in a committed relationship already, but he wants her to know he's in it for life.

He couldn't do it. But, he's doing it. No. They're doing it.

No longer is Gil Grissom floundering alone, wondering what might have been. He's standing there, cradling the hand of his beloved, and he's stepping out on that ledge that for so long seemed too treacherous to travel. He's facing this beautiful woman, and she's looking back at him, affirming his hopes and dreams. She's in it for life, too.

Let Us Do It. I can break this down for ages, but it just stands alone.

Us. There's two of them. He's not standing behind the glass bemoaning his fears and inadequacies to a criminal, and she's no longer standing behind the glass, unseen, unheard. There's a unit here now.

Do It. He didn't know what to "do" about "this." He couldn't "do" it. It's a small, tiny word that's come up so much in the Grissom/Sara mythology. And, here, it's the defining word. There's no "let's think about it." "Let's meditate on it." No. "Let's do it." There's a definity to it. There's this lack of wavering to it. It's solid and steadfast, and their vision is set. It's beautiful.

The writing is just so layered and textured in this scene, and part of it has to do with the performances, but so much of it comes from a great script. And, I think it wouldn't have been the same had a man with a theater background not been behind it.

Both Gil and Sara are exposed, now. They're open and connected, and the smile on her face and the fascination and amazement on his just show, to me, how much they connect.

Now, I did cringe at the almost-bee-net-kiss. I thought it wasn't necessary. If I could cut the scene off at Sara's glowing face, I would. But, the point it, it was a gorgeous scene from my perspective. I love layered, textured scenes!

I thought it was a well-rounded episode, in all, with lots of great character moments, and a good balance of story and science. I hope there are more episodes like this to come this season!

 

Re: "The Case of the Cross-Dressing Carp" Discussion *SPOILE

I almost threw up when he asked her to marry him! BLAH!!! Theya re just so...ewww.

I liked the episode (minus any scenes with Sara). I thought it was an interesting episode and I enjoyed it alot.

 

Re: "The Case of the Cross-Dressing Carp" Discussion *SPOILE

super episode this in so many ways. None more so than the very strong A story with it's many twists and turns.

What I also loved about the episode was the many great interactions between characters.

The Grissom / Hodges scene was great I think Billy Petersen and Wally Langham really do work so well together. I hope now that rather than drag in new characters, that Hodges gets a lot more air time to fill a certain void. CSI is losing a strong character, and there is a strong character in Hodges waiting in the wings as far as I'm concerend (not that I suggest he starts dating Grissom as much as he'd love to )

Also loved the Cath - Griss scene when he gets a bit flustered with his 'nothing, why?' comment.

And the ineraction between Greg and Cath's mother, very cool!

And don't get me started on the 'What's up Doc' line

As for the proposal, really nicely done, as unique a 'love scene' as you'll get. Wondefully Grissom-esque. And beautifully acted by William Petersen.

All in all, excellent stories and some very nice writing and character based stuff, that didn't take away from the story lines. CSI at it's best really.

 

Re: "The Case of the Cross-Dressing Carp" Discussion *SPOILE

I've not had chance to read through all the other comments on this episode, but here is what I thought:

I actually really liked it! And I wasn't really expecting to, I didn't think it would hold my interest but it did. It's probably been my favourite episode of the season so far. Firstly, I quite like Ronnie, I think she's a fairly good addition to the team, and I wasn't overly sure of her last week, but she's grown on me.

Greg and Cath's Mom! Brilliant, I like Lily anyway, but Greg's enthusiasm for 'old' Vegas and Lily's knowledge of it really work well together. I thought it was interesting that Sara called her 'Lily' though, I think it somehow shows that all the CSI's really are that close now, which must make it harder for Sara now she is working the swing shift.

And obviously, the proposal. It was very Grissom, and I liked it.

Yeah, I could write much more, but I feel I would need to go back and rewatch the episode first. It was a good one.

 

Re: "The Case of the Cross-Dressing Carp" Discussion *SPOILE

Alyssa,

Your post about the episode and the historical context within the show is one of the most insightful and brilliant things I have read in a LONG time. Thank you for sharing your views with us.

Walter

 

Re: "The Case of the Cross-Dressing Carp" Discussion *SPOILE

Wow. I really appreciate that marg_fan. I really do. I just loved this episode, and couldn't stop writing about it!

 

Re: "The Case of the Cross-Dressing Carp" Discussion *SPOILE

Kudos to you, Alyssa. I don't agree with everything you wrote, but you wrote a superb analysis and I enjoyed reading it very much. Thank you.

Greg was splendid in this episode.

 

Re: "The Case of the Cross-Dressing Carp" Discussion *SPOILE

To those that asked about the boy, he broke a beer bottle and cut up his own chest because they had laughed at him. Then he climbed up in the tree and hung himself.

 

Re: "The Case of the Cross-Dressing Carp" Discussion *SPOILE

That's the single most beautiful thing I've ever heard. I was literally crying reading this (shows how much of a dork I am). But you were right on the mark with this, and took the words right out of my mouth.

 

Re: "The Case of the Cross-Dressing Carp" Discussion *SPOILE

Now that i watched the episode i got to say, Greg and Lily took the show :lol:
Im with Kaylynethe story about the carp case was pretty similar to the Erin Brockovich movie, Catherine was fantastic in this episode, we noticed that she had learned from her mistakes, she knew about the conflict of interests on the first case and how she handled it, besides, i woulndt care if she leaks the info, she's a mother and understood exactly to the boy's mom.
Gotta say, "Do i know how to turn you on or what?" was priceless!:devil: im so happy we could see that chemistry and funny comments between those two again. I really miss the old days, but anyway...
Overall, really good episode, the only thing i couldnt tolerate, as always, the gsr part, but thank god i can advance the video

 

Re: "The Case of the Cross-Dressing Carp" Discussion *SPOILE

see, i didnt understand catherine handing off the case at all. from my understanding, she was just standing there with her mom watching the construction when they found the body. since it was daytime and she seemed to be doing her own thing, im guessing she was not on the clock. the case would not have been hers so why does she have to phone to hand it off? to prove to the viewers she has changed?

i am finding ronnie to be a completely useless character. the only reason she is there is so sara has someone to work with on swing. but in this episode she was on for like 10 seconds before greg swooped in to help out, so she really didnt have a purpose this week.

my interest in this episode seemed to vary throughout its course. i probably paid more attention to the main case. the fact that it was a suicide made it more upsetting than if it had been a murder. even with the seriousness of that case there was some great dialogue and good jokes which helped lighten the mood. saras case? enh, nothing special. although it did give greg a chance to get into the old vegas history which was pretty cute.

the team dynamics and interactions were also better in this episode than they were in the previous season and i am looking forward to that continuing.