Grissom&Sara #23 - Hot, Butt-Kicking, Chainsaw Wielding Love

Re: Grissom&Sara #23 - Hot, Butt-Kicking, Chainsaw Wielding

Our past 'shippy' scenes, in the Pre-Canon days, were more or less a 50-50 split between "squee" moments ("Since I met you", "Chalk, from plaster") and "Ouch!" moments ("I wish I was like you, I wish I didn't feel anything", "I'm handing out assignments...") As any GSR shipper will tell you, this ship was built on angst, and to lose the not so happy moments of the geeks past is to essentially strip away half the ship.

However, I don't feel that the "music scene" as it has now been dubbed, is on par with the angst of our past. Sure, it wasn't hugs and puppies, but it wasn't a fight by any stretch of the imagination.

I agree that there has been a shift between them since the beginning of their relationship (most than one, if you come from Ireland and, like me, know that 'shift' and 'shifting' means kissing/making out ) But the dynamics have changed - and changed for the better.

I don't agree that what Sara said in 7:06 is on par with Grissom back in 'Invisible Evidence' however. His comment was about several things - being up against a deadline for one, re-asserting his dominance/power over Sara.

However, Sara's comments in 7:06, while it was about power (because I'm not saying Sara doesn't have power over the Bugman, because she DEFINITELY does), it was very different from IE because she was wielding her power a lot more gently than Grissom used to. She didn't snap. She didn't confront him or say what she had to say in an angry or overtly forceful way. She even waited until Greg had left the room before she truly said what was on her mind.

Exactly. The power-balance has shifted to the extent where the Geeks are now on par with each other. It isn't Grissom as bossman/supervisor/mentor/teacher, with Sara following behind, learning all he has to say by rote and revering him. Career wise, he is still on a higher level than her, but that's all. She is her own woman, she has her own mind, she is no longer prepared to kowtow to Grissom, to have him put her in her place and for her to stay there. She is his equal, in every way that counts, and their relationship is all the stronger for it.

Prior to Geek-Canon, we discussed at length the power balance between Grissom and Sara, the fact that he enjoyed having his "marionette-like control" over her, etc. We said at the time that the power-balance would need to equalize between them if they were ever to have a successful relationship. And it has. This is one of the best things about this scene - it shows that they are absolute equals. Sara is now comfortable and confident enough to offer Grissom advice, forcefully but non-aggressively, and he is prepared to take it, without dismissing her as he might have done in the past.

Precisely. It isn't how a couple get through the easy, fun times that demonstrates the strength of their relationship - it's how they get through the tough times, the challenging times. I don't think that the 'music scene' was a particularly challenging time for them, but I definitely think that there will be challenging times to come. But I have confidence that they will see them through, successfully and together, because they've got the balance right. That's my hope for them anyway. But we'll see what is to come...

Edited, because rushing makes my spelling suck

 

Re: Grissom&Sara #23 - Hot, Butt-Kicking, Chainsaw Wielding

Okay, let me preface this by saying that I do KNOW we have Grissom fans here. I KNOW we have WP fans here, but I got into a long discussion with a user on YTDaW who had taken issue with my saying that Grissom was a bad boss, and she said that she felt as if GSR shippers, on the whole, were always more ready to defend Sara than Grissom.

That Grissom should always be seen as being "lucky" to have Sara, and it was Sara's right and what she deserved, to have Grissom.

I don't personally believe that. If I did (and yes, for a long time I was more of a Sara fan than a Grissom fan, but I think it's levelling out) I don't think I could truly support them being together.

Like we said earlier, they weren't ready to be together because of Sara worshipping Grissom and Grissom still seeing her as his student.

So likewise, if we were hero-worshipping Sara and seeing Grissom as a "dog", I don't know how fun discussing their relationship would be.

But this is what that person (in less harsh terms than I'm putting it here) saw a lot of GSR shippers.

So now I kind of put this forth:

Let's say Greg had gotten beat up, and it was Grissom who had to watch him suffering, lying there, while he tried to comfort him. He watched Greg struggle for breath, etc. Everyone else has been nice to Greg. Sara, who wasn't at the crime scene and didn't see what happened to Greg, and whose relationship with him had always been somewhat put-down, comes in and has a headache. Loud music.

Would we be more mad at Grissom for telling Sara that Greg was having a hard time?

I don't want to believe so, but I do think that often when Grissom has done something we don't like, we will call him on it. With Sara, we often try to find a way around it.

I didn't like the scene in ABRTI. I thought they all handled themselves badly, but even I was writing about how Sara was truly in the right, and it made sense for her to say that. Yes, technically Sofia should not have been there. But it was Grissom's job to tell her that. It reminded me of the scene in Anna and the King where he tells her that BECAUSE she came in and tried to tell the king that he shouldn't execute the lovers, he had to. Because Sara comes in and tells Sofia to get out, Grissom can't support her on it, so he has to shut his mouth.

Should Grissom have opened up his mouth earlier and not let Sofia cut him off? Yes. Should Sofia not have been there? Yes. So bad form all around, but Sara was just as much to blame, and I didn't hear a lot of that.

So maybe the thing we're having a hard time with on the music scene is that we may be reluctant to look at it from an angle of 'Sara was wrong'.

Now, mystery said something interesting, and that was that because Grissom is so well-liked, no one thinks that he needs to be defended. Sara, on the other hand, can be quite disliked outside of the GSR community. So therefore, we feel the need to defend her internally as if we were almost answering back.

Just like Sofia fans are often quite staunch in their appreciation of her.

And that's another point - Sara had a relationship for a year. Grissom had three dates (if you want to call the pilot lab tech a date, Teri Miller was a botched one, and Sofia's was his way of getting her to stay at the lab), and a one-night stand that WP refuses to confirm because he says it didn't happen.

Sara had a relationship.

From what I've seen, there was a lot of dislike thrown at Sara when she dated Hank, but for the newer users who don't remember it or simply don't really care, I think that Grissom's flirting has been a source of annoyance for GSR shippers, and the amount of women he's had come close to relationships.

So that may be another option - that we've seen Sara only really interested in one other person, and even that person seemed to be there to get her mind off of Grissom.

So we see her as being more "true" to the ship.

It's 7 in the morning. Sorry I'm babbling.

But basically yeah - that's my point. Is it that we're just more willing and ready to defend Sara, making a scene where Grissom visibly does NOT want to repromand her, and she chooses to support someone else while he's suffering, difficult?

Perhaps we're having a hard time, after all the years of angst and pushing her away, accepting that the veggie-burger dispensing, dear-saying love really is here to stay.

ETA

I do want to say that I definitely agree that this scene was nowhere near as angsty as Invisible Evidence handing out the assignments, but I think that like in ABRTI, which fuels my theory that they must've been together then, Grissom cannot say anything to repromand Sara both as her boyfriend and as her boss.

And that puts him at a distinct disadvantage, and it means two people have now seen first-hand Grissom giving Sara "special treatment".

And I will say that Sara used her power over Grissom, as was stated, to help someone else. Grissom seemed to be more, as Catherine was inferring "showing her who's in charge", which doesn't help anyone.

 

Re: Grissom&Sara #23 - Hot, Butt-Kicking, Chainsaw Wielding

wow guys, i'm impressed. seriously. amazing analysis theatre, fogs and sarah. wow.

what i thought about the music scene when i first saw it, was "he didn't reprimand her, which is shippy". question, would he say anything to Sara if she was the only one in the room with loud music and no Greg? i think he would've simply turned it off and went straight to the work mode.

but no, there was Greg. Greg, who always puts music loud in the lab and Grissom as his supervisor always tells him not to. this day though, he has bad migraine and he is even more annoyed b/c he's AGAIN asking Greg not to do it, who doesn't listen.

and i agree with sarah on this, that we should look a bit at Sara too. her tone was pretty harsh and we can argue if she should or should not have noticed Grissom's raising headache.

but i agree with theatre, that every moment that indicates some relevance/shift/connotation/connection to the pairing should be considered shippy. even if it involves a third person and another shpis, it's STILL a shippy scene. if Sandles think this scene was shippy for them, while GSR is canon and Grissom is in the room as well, i can see a close connection to the relationship of our Geeks themselves.

i'm gonna write more when i come back from my tennis practice. or maybe tommorow cuz i've got to write and learn a huge speech.

peace.

 

Re: Grissom&Sara #23 - Hot, Butt-Kicking, Chainsaw Wielding

Agreed, and I was quite surprised how few people seemed to want to talk about that.

This isn't a slam, obviously - I mean, that person wouldn't have had that discussion with me in the first place if I, too, wasn't more prone to defending Sara and then sort of going, "As it should be" when Grissom does something nice.

But... that was a very shippy scene for Grissom. No, he didn't call her dear, he didn't say, "Absolutely. Greg, I apologize."

But there was definitely a crisis of conscience, and for once, instead of burying his feelings for her and then snapping at her so that everyone in the room can be sure he doesn't like her because that would be bad and he couldn't like her... blah blah blah (which is how I interpreted IE - no, Sara, I won't give you special priviliages... in front of everyone else), he didn't even side with her. He just dropped it.

I think it's been pretty well established that a LOT of techs like to listen to music while they're processing. So the fact that Sara and Greg were doing it is probably not against policy. I think Sara took issue with the fact that a) Grissom immediately assumed it was Greg (which, hey, it probably was) and b) Basically implied that Greg wasn't allowed.

So Sara may have been saying, "Oh, Greg's not allowed? In that case, it's mine."

And we've seen Grissom listening to loud opera in his office. We've seen him listen to it on his headphones.

He was merely snapping at someone because he had a headache, which is completely understandable.

This morning I snapped at Dayna because I'm a horrible person but she was talking while I was trying to type and I wanted to hurt her kittens for it.

lol.

Sorry - rambling again.

But yeah - Grissom didn't have a right to tell them to turn it off by pretending as if there was a rule against it specifically pertaining to Greg. He could've simply asked that they keep it down right now.

But he respected Sara telling him that he'd gone too far.

Was it a dangerous scene? Yes. I think it implies that TPTB are eventually setting up a bigger situation where Grissom will have to choose between Sara and someone else in a job situation and end up offending someone. But at this point, I'm not sure that Sara cares. If it had been Sara he snapped at, she wouldn't have loved it, but I don't think she would have been that miffed. She was standing up for Greg, and I think he most likely respected that.

Considering he told Sara he'd like to die and have time to say goodbye to her, I do believe he would've been more comfortable telling her he had a headache, or he may have asked if she minded.

The thing about Greg, is that he's always been a little jealous of how close Greg and Sara were. Even from very early episodes. And the most recent and most blatant example being the dark look he shoots Greg in Committed when he's flirting with her, or the dark look when Greg talks about the dirty dream he had about her.

If it had been Nick or Warrick with her? I don't think he would have snapped.

But you never know. That's kind of the nature of a headache - you aren't rationally breaking it down and saying, "Does it make sense to be getting mad over this?"

I think he would've turned off the music without asking, I think he would've told her to keep it down, but I also think either he would have said, or she would have assumed, that he had a headache, and she might have been more willing to accept it.

Greg was dealing with a lot, and to Sara, neither one of them got to be "above" the other at that moment.

I don't believe she did. I also think that she clearly may have put two and two together, because when she softly explains it to him later, there's a very neutral exchange between them that kind of communicates no hard feelings on either side.

 

Re: Grissom&Sara #23 - Hot, Butt-Kicking, Chainsaw Wielding

Dear Adzix, your icons, are love.

I love Sara's music taste, and I like Greg's too. ROCK = <3. And Marilyn Manson, his music, not him, is pretty cool.

And um. Excuse me, but, you know you love Billy when you find him attractive, and then your friends say 'he has grey hair?!', and you say 'he's so hot.'

My friend was totally freaked out.

fogi!! you're back! *dances around* yay!

Spoiler: the sunset nudist beach scene

I bet the spoiler-free's are totally going crazy. But anyway, I have a question. but I forgot what i was going to say.. because i was too busy staring at Adzix's icons.

 

Re: Grissom&Sara #23 - Hot, Butt-Kicking, Chainsaw Wielding

Spoiler: Grissom goes undercover at a nudist colony?

At this point, I'm pretty much just enjoying fucking with Adzix. Either way - I don't know how many of you read other spoilers, but it turns out Liev is NOT going to take over Grissom's job. Catherine is going to be Supervisor, Liev is just helping to fill the CSI absence. Please try to forget that back in Season 5, Night Shift could be handled by three people, one of whom had only just passed evaluation. It will make your brain hurt. This means a couple of things: one, an outsider is MORE likely to pick up on GSR vibes or sense Sara's disapproval with someone taking over her luvuh's post, so better that it's Catherine, and I really doubt Liev is going to hit up on her.

I probably should've put other for the poll. But I chose option 1.

Basically, for me, Sara gets bashed more, so I think we feel like we need to lay off of her because SO many people are eager to tell us when she's screwed up.

Both on the show and on the boards.

Grissom is revered on both show and boards, so it's less of a priority.

But I do think that the music scene was a good example of a time when Sara was more in the wrong than Grissom, purely from a subordinate level, and put him in an awkward position.

Ultimately, neither came off all that bad, and it's like I said - I think we're not totally ready to trust that Grissom IS so open and romantic about things.

 

Re: Grissom&Sara #23 - Hot, Butt-Kicking, Chainsaw Wielding

This was just something i was thinking about today. What if it had been Warrick, Catherine, or Nick in the boombox room with Greg? Grissom walks in, Greg takes the blame (unless Nick decided to ditch his classic country ), but once Greg leaves, one of the three tells Grissom to cool it with Greg, just like Sara did. Do you think Grissom would react the same way as he did with Sara?

Spoiler: wtf?!?

Okay, so someone explain to me the whole tai chi thing or however you spell it. I haven't been here in a while. Or is this just a joke i missed? *i sit and wait in confusion*

 

Re: Grissom&Sara #23 - Hot, Butt-Kicking, Chainsaw Wielding

No - and that may have been the other reason the scene had an uneasy feeling. Grissom definitely gave Sara preference, and did so in front of someone else. Someone bound to notice that sort of thing.

Whether or not Sara was right to speak up, the fact that Grissom said nothing to her - and visibly stopped himself snapping at her - would not have gone unnoticed.

If it had been Nick or Warrick or someone, he probably would've just said, "Let's get to work" and I don't think either of them would've necessarily felt the same need to further explain why they defended Greg.

So it's a little hard to say exactly - would Sara have been so quick to defend Greg if it had been Catherine? Would Sara have been as repromanding to Grissom if it was Nick who'd turned up the music?

Sara was the one with him at the crime scene, came specifically to comfort Greg, and had to see him at his absolute worst.

Again - migraine, defending Greg... I don't think any of it affects the ship in the sense of Grissom and Sara not wanting to be together anymore, but it is, as I said before, setting up the two of them doing or saying something stupidly obvious in front of people with the power to look into it further.

Spoiler: absolutely naked?

Oh, we're just messing around with Adzix because we know she can't read the spoilers.

 

Re: Grissom&Sara #23 - Hot, Butt-Kicking, Chainsaw Wielding

*THOSE. SPOILER. BOXES. ARE. GIVING. POOR. ADZIX. JOY. MIGRANES.*

i know you are doing this especially to ME y'all.

but seriously, i don't believe you guys anymore. it's like i would put a spoiler with a title "sarah from Vancouver is going to star as a new member of CSI team who in her first episode will make out with Ecklie and have Ecklie babies".

and you think i'm gonna believe this only b/c you put such a spoiler title? after the vanilla oil thing, i am not going to believe in anything.

period.

thank you bunches

that's the whole idea of WPHS

the poll. umm, i'm confused with this one. i kinda think all the answers mean the same. uhh, maybe it's b/c i wrote my english paper till 3 am yesterday.

and this may be another tiny bity shipper moment as well. she tells him what she thinks, he accepts it, and they just talk like nothing happened.

besides, she asks him directly what she wants not going around the problem and that's something that characterizes people who are more than comfortable with each other.

i'd totally love to see a romantic Grissom though. i think it's in character and i would just rewatch it a zillion times if he done something romantic for her.

 

Re: Grissom&Sara #23 - Hot, Butt-Kicking, Chainsaw Wielding

Because Greg is Sara's little brother. She has to take care of him, and showed him the ropes. So, Sara and Grissom are married, Catherine and Warrick are the aunt and uncle. Greg is the little brother, Nick is the older brother. and Jim is the Grandpa that gives money to everyone.

And Ecklie is the evil Grandpa that everyone stays away from.

lol.

Spoiler: changing the rating of csi to R, because of the sunset nudist scene

lol. This is fun. And I doubt they'll change the rating to R, .. maybe 18A : )

Okay. Fine, don't believe us. *starts whistling*

 

Re: Grissom&Sara #23 - Hot, Butt-Kicking, Chainsaw Wielding

Spoiler: It's HOW big?

Too far? Too far.

I'm Sacklie 2.0!!!!

Our babies would be evil, y'all. EVIL.

Spoiler: How will it fit? Will they need to employ Super Wide Screen?

Definitely too far.

I think it's important to note that they moved on pretty quickly. Before they were together, they both really liked to let problems fester. This got dealt with swiftly, and then it was over. It says they probably have a very healthy way of dealing with each other in general now.

Spoiler: a real one this time

Well, speculation based around the 'he's leaving' thing. IF they are going the angsty route when he leaves, because it sounded like we might get a GSR goodbye scene, and Sara did seem cagey about it when Nick brought it up, I'd love for, a couple episodes down the road, or perhaps when he returns, we just see her open her locker and there's a small present for her from Rhode Island. A Quohog clam, perhaps?

The one who, like, makes you clean his teeth for 25 cents?

Spoiler: HUGE

Yeah... I'm going to stop now... promise...

 

Re: Grissom&Sara #23 - Hot, Butt-Kicking, Chainsaw Wielding

Spoiler: seriously though - new love interest for ecklie?

Okay, maybe not so serious. Sarah, you know you'd totally bone Marc Vann.

Spoiler: shipwrecked, re:nakedness

Now, while Sarah said 'we're just messing with Adzix', the tai chi thing is actually no joke. Grissom is in fact supposed to be seen doing tai chi in an upcoming episode. Hopefully naked or in a really awful costume if we want to make Adz die and Ziggy swoon.

For the poll I picked 'other', though, looking at the question again, saying "are we" as opposed to "are you" I think maybe I should have picked option one. I think "we" as a group do tend to go easy on Sara a lot, and tend to be very defensive of her, also.

The reason I picked other, though, was because of my personal feelings on cutting people a break. I think each situation should be weighed up individually, and judged only on that alone. Sure, we could forever reprimand Grissom for his past foibles, and I bet we could play 'poor Sara' for the next 100 years, too. But isn't it time we just moved on from that shit?

And, who cares what outsiders think of our Geeks. We know what time it is.

(Warrick is my homeboy)

 

Re: Grissom&Sara #23 - Hot, Butt-Kicking, Chainsaw Wielding

Spoiler: sporter

I would never ever want to steal such a prime man from you, my dear. Marc Vann happens to kick ass, however, and I'm sure he's not half as bad as Ecklie. Or if he is, I do hope that he's beaten frequently on set with reeds.

Spoiler: agreed

Yeah - sorry, thanks for clarifying that. The Tai Chi, for some godforsaken reason, is in fact real. We're just debating how far they plan to take it. Like, baggy silk pajama bottoms? Tartan boxers? Spandex? How does Grissom Tai Chi? And for the love of God can't they change it to meditation?

Warrick is indeed a fine homeboy to have.

Anyway - agreed. Each situation kind of has to be analyzed, but what I mean is that take this situation: in Roshomama, there were a few people saying they weren't crazy about Mikey hitting on Sara. But a LOT were glad that Sara was being shown as desirable and that someone was showing interest and the jealousy might clue Grissom in.

If Grissom so much as glances at another woman, he should be fried in oil.

The difference? Sara has always been up-front with him, and she DID ask him out. And again, when she was dating Hank, there was supposedly a lot of hate thrown her way as well.

I just think that back during Paramedigate, we hadn't had a lot of *real* competition for Sara. Heather had flirted, but we were unaware she'd be returning, and Sofia had yet to be cast.

So Grissom was shown to be the one sadly yearning away. But because the balance was never quite shifted back to equal after LH, I think that it was just time that solidifed this idea of Sara as the one who was "true to the ship" and Grissom who would drop her from his sight the moment someone else showed up for sweeps.

 

Re: Grissom&Sara #23 - Hot, Butt-Kicking, Chainsaw Wielding

there is so much here to comment on, about the music scene and all the analysis, but i am so damn tired, especially after reading it all, and its late, so i'll be brief for now. i agreed with all of reply #1005511. the ABRTI stuff was interesting. its true on reflection, although i always said i thought it was weird how the boss, grissom didnt say a thing, and Sara basically acted like the boss in that scene, like she had authority over both of them, and the worst thing was grissom never said a thing to her. and as has been remarked before, she probably wouldnt have if it had been anyone other than grissom in the office with sophia. so id agree, they were obviously together by then, in some form, though she had voiced off to him on many other occasions, and he hadnt given her special treatment and that never stopped her. and id agree, Sophia probably was miffed at that too. the comparisons to that scene and the music scene are interesting. where prior, like has been discussing in IE, he wouldnt give her special treatment in front of others, in ABRTI he did, and in the music scene he did. if it had been anyone other than sara who walked in on him and sophia, he'd have been a whole lot more boss like as oppose to, silent. i agree, her power as such over grissom, now that shes with him, has made her more confident to take him on at work, but thats not necessarily a good thing, work wise, but personal-wise, for their relationship, its good their equal and that he encourages it when she does speak up. he doesn’t shoot her down and as said, that’s probably because at work he doesn’t feel he can, its also true, both sophia and greg have seen her get special treatment. but im still uneasy about this greg stuff. i feel like they made a decision to go with this ship and the little, i darecent call them shippy moments, but certian scenes, they almost make me mad a little bit, cause i feel like they taint the GSR ship a bit. probably cause i feel like 'why do they have to stick in those subtle little moments, given what we all know about how he feels, and now that shes now with grissom' i just feel like any threatening stuff for the ship is bad news. But the way their playing the ship is better than I could have imagined so I shouldn’t complain. well anyways i guess if you were in a relationship with someone at work, it would change how you were around them. the dynamics have changed so its to be expected. she feels equal with him now, even though hes the boss. but she knows she can get away with certain stuff and say certain stuff because she is going out with him, that’s natural. i dont think it bothers him, but if she were to make a habit of it, it probably would. but i dont think she would. but he is showing favouritism towards her at work, and though thats something we'd expect cause hes dating her, and their in love!....he really shouldnt be doing that at work, but he cant help himself, with checking her out kicking the dummy and buying her lunch and pairing himself off with her, and the preferential treatment he gave her....its bound to come out soon, these arnt a bunch of idiots they work with, their all intelligent people, and most of them have noted 'you just dont like grissom around other women' 'she'll get the promotion cause of their history' their thing over the years so its getting so obvious, yet its so subtle, but its bound to come out soon, i cant wait, as long as its positive till the end. but he just probably wants her to feel secure, and since their in a relationship, it would be very easy for sara to feel be-littled if grissom were to place emphasis on his position and enforce his authority, hes lenient cause he wants her to feel equal and respected, and their personal life is affecting their working life, even if its in a very small way, and its hard for it not to be....its a dilemma. And for the poll I voted #1. I totally agree. well im going to sleep now lol. i'll write more tomorrow.

 

Re: Grissom&Sara #23 - Hot, Butt-Kicking, Chainsaw Wielding

Just to rewind a bit on this goregous couple.. from the Tv Guide.. geez their a good looking couple... my fav. issue so far

OUR AWESOME/TWOSOME