*A BIT OF PERSPECTIVE, AND CALL FOR A "TRUCE" RE THE E/C ROMANCE.*

I really do wish this could happen. While I don't think a real truce could ever happen, as the two sides obviously share opposing viewpoints and I think we're all mature enough to respect both sides, I do wish we could debate constructively like this.

Here is the huge problem I've noticed on this board regarding Eric and Calleigh discussion: The "E/C dislike" thread is in this forum, the Miami forum, where posters have a bit more leeway with expressing why they dislike something and how it ties into the show. The "E/C like" thread, however, is in the shipper forum, where posters are pretty much required to discuss solely the relationship. If we don't, we get a reminder - and rightly so, because it's the shipper forum. So I think it's hard to compare, and it's hard for Eric and Calleigh supporters to be represented based on that thread. I like Eric and Calleigh, but I rarely post...because I do like to talk about more than just the positive aspects of the relationship. I don't really feel that there is anywhere to do that without it being a stretch. And that's not meant to criticize moderators, admins, or posters. It's just that the two threads serve different purposes, you know? (And I mean that as more than just pro-EC vs. non-EC)

I agree with both sides on certain things, and while I do love Eric and Calleigh I agree with the "other" side that the characters have become a little lost in that relationship. (That, however, is across the board, and it's all due to subpar writing and lost story lines. What happened to sweet, OCD cop Ryan? What happened to Horatio being a little more human, what with Suzy and Madison, and him being pretty much in love with Yelina? What happened to Natalia dealing with the death of a husband whom she had a very convoluted relationship with? What happened to the team?)

I don't mean to get into this kind of discussion in here; I'm just using these as examples of the things we don't get to discuss all together because of this division and because of the limitations of our threads in different forums. Like I said, I like Eric and Calleigh...but that doesn't mean I agree with where the writers are going with it or that I like where the show is headed. Believe me, I'd much rather they stay on keel as a procedural and delve into all the characters equally and accurately. And I do wish we could all discuss the show, the E/C relationship, how it affects the show and characters, etc with open minds from both sides.

 

I don't get this confrontation here.Every show has developed some romantic relationships and each time the fans split in half expressing different opinions about the matter.So,I think everyone has the right to support(or not),not only E/C but all the relationships that occur in the show.

 

Thank you for the explanation 'cause I really didn't get how it was not possible for us to say that we didn't like E/C neither in this area of the forum nor the shipper area

What I find most difficult to cope with is the fact that, appearently, E/C fans cannot accept the idea that there actually are some fans who dislike E/C. It's not against you but I have an issue with those people who don't like the idea there's a dislike thread. In all honesty, we've been facing you appreaciating this couple for many years and once we get our possibility to express our opinion against the couple (fictional btw ) you cannot accpet it? How in the hell is possible??? Seriously, this pisses me off!!! :lol:

Anyway, as much as I would love things to change, I know it won't happen. As long people are not able to accept this situation, it will be impossible. But oh well I'd be more than pleased to see people proving me wrong, in this case

 

I personally have no problem with the presence of a dislike thread - if EC fans don't go in there, what's the problem? We like EC, you guys don't, so why does that make your opinions any less valid? I don't get that mentality. I don't think you guys should have to keep quiet - I think you have every right to express whatever's on your mind, within the rules of the board, of course. I also have no issue accepting that some people are never going to like the EC relationship - hell, one of my really good friends and likely the person I have the most respect for in the whole fandom is as anti-EC as a person could be, and sometimes I feel we get along better than I do with some of the EC shippers. :lol:

I think a lot of the problem though is what happens outside of the EC shipper thread and the EC dislike thread. Most EC shippers don't wander into the dislike thread (I do, all the time, because I'm actually interested in seeing the other side of the argument), but I think a few of them may feel as though they're not allowed out of the EC shipper thread because of the sometimes anti-EC atmosphere of certain episode threads (and that works both ways too, I've seen episode threads deteriorate so far into 'we love EC it's awesome!!' that I would absolutely expect the non-EC fans to be bothered by that.) I do feel a couple of the actor discussions have gone a bit far, but that's the only issue I've ever really had, and obviously it didn't deter me enough to keep me from reading the dislike thread (believe it or not, I find myself agreeing with quite a few of the things that are said in there re: life-or-death drama, screentime, etc.)

I think it's ridiculous to expect that every single person is going to have the same views on something. If that were the case, we'd run out of things to say pretty fast, don't you think? Basically the point I'm getting from Delquesne's original post is that there's no reason for there to be any real animosity (we're on the internet, lol) between us just because of shipper differences. There should be no reason why we can't talk about an episode or the characters civilly with one another in an episode/character thread. I honestly don't see why that mutual respect (and again, talking about both sides here) is so hard to find.

 

I don't think there is anyone who doesn't know how I feel about E/C and how they affect the show, but against my better judgment I'll add my comments.

I think both Flo and MJ have spoken to a very important point. It seems that everything is perfectly fine as long as everyone acknowledges that Eric and Calleigh are the perfect pair with the perfect relationship and they belong together and every scene with them is absolutely perfect.

The moment anyone challenges that perfection they are called "haters" and told, "if you don't like it, stop watching!" Why is it that fans disliking E/C is taken as a personal insult by some? They are fictional characters not someone's real-life loving relatives.

I warned long ago that telling those who weren't happy about the E/C relationship to stop watching would someday backfire as they would do just that and everyone would lose as the show would be cancelled.

Some E/C supporters acknowledge that not everyone is expected to like E/C and they say that's okay. But it seems to be just words as the objection and continuous challenge to the "Dislike" thread never stops. They know the content of the posts there but enter the thread anyway, knowing those who post there are NOT going to change their minds, in an attempt to defend E/C. And the war starts again. I'm almost certain those who do not support E/C do not go into the E/C shipper thread and purposely try to upset the E/C supporters. I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong.

And it's a big Internet. Let's not pretend that we have blinders on. I know that what is said on other boards should not come into play here - god knows we have enough problems here - but there have been a few posters who have asked for conflict resolution here over time who are the ones using the most inflammatory language in other forums. It just gives one pause.

If E/C supporters should be allowed to carry on and on, post after post in the episode threads about E/C scenes, those who find those scenes disruptive to the flow of the story, or even inappropriate to the story or show itself, should also be allowed to voice their opinion.

There are fans who simply do not see the chemistry others do and never have, or they see it in a different light. They have a right to feel as they do without being told they are "blind" or "unfeeling" or "too old to remember what love is", etc. On the other side of the coin, yes, E/C supporters shouldn't be all be tagged as "teenagers" as they have proved they are certainly not.

E/C has become a significant presence on CSI Miami. Commenting on any aspect of the show without including E/C has virtually become impossible. It is not just canon at this point. It appears to permeate every part of the show and they've done it to themselves with Eric and Calleigh overkill. If an E/C "moment" is not specifically written into the story, it is the Eric and Calleigh "team" working lead while everyone else - equally qualified CSI's - follow in the background like they are of no consequence - even Horatio at this point.

While some E/C supporters say they don't see this (and I can see why they wouldn't with their favorite characters), some have openly stated they feel E/C are the show therefore it is justified. For those who do not like E/C, or who love those characters who have been relegated to the background to make way for increased E/C, it simply elevates the dread of what is to come each week ... and now next season.

I honestly don't see how a "truce" is possible with as polarized as the factions involved have become. The lack of respect for a different opinion is pronounced. And I believe too much damage has been done.

And I truly believe that a significant amount of the credit for this split belongs to TPTB. They've encouraged this, and enjoyed it no doubt, thinking it was great publicity to have the fans fighting over these two. And knowing that it has irreparably split their fanbase, they've made no move to try and heal the wound.

 

I completely agree with Jessica's response to this. I am perfectly fine with you guys having a dislike thread. Like you said, how is it possible to not accept someone else having a differing opinion? That's just life! And you should absolutely be able to have a place to discuss your dislike of the relationship. Heck, I even scan that thread and agree with a lot of the things being said in there as well.

The only things that have ever sat the wrong way with me in that thread were some borderline actor-bashing and the insinuation that E/C supporters are just kind of "yay EC!" and don't consider the bigger picture of the show. That's what I was getting at before, with saying that we can't really expand on that sort of thing in the E/C thread because it's in the shipper forum. I'd love to discuss the relationship's effect on the show, the oddly distributed screen time, how the relationship has affected both characters' relationships with other people on the show, and just the show and characters in general...but the E/C thread isn't for that.

And Jessica is right in saying that some of us feel we really don't have anywhere else to go and feel welcome to discuss that sort of stuff. If I were to go into an episode or character discussion, I'd feel pretty pigeon-holed as someone who likes E/C...like that I'd be happy with TPTB throwing us a bone in the form of some poorly written, ambiguous E/C scene or some silly, repetitive drama that takes up quality time for the development of other characters or for the case. I think some of us from both sides are actually upset about a lot of the same things regarding this show, and it would be nice to be accepted as someone who is open minded and wants to discuss the show...rather than looked at as someone who thinks Eric and Calleigh are perfect, that every scene should be about them, that no one should challenge that relationship, etc. because I think a lot of us are so NOT like that. And I'm truly sorry that at some point (or maybe still) those who dislike E/C felt like their opinions weren't being validated or that they weren't "allowed" to dislike E/C. That's awful and I hope you know that not all of us feel that way or want that. Personally, I like hearing what everyone has to say and I respect all sides so long as everyone is being respectful.

 

I'm happy to know that there are some who come to the "dislike" thread and find at least some thoughts there they can identify with. I know that it gets pretty emotional there sometimes, and I can be horribly guilty of that at times. I try to direct my knee-jerk reactions to a wonderful friend who listens to me vent so it never makes it to the board. Finch is right about the "Preview" button and about taking a walk sometimes before posting.

I DO know that not all E/C supporters think E/C should be in every scene and the show should be all about them. But a lot of the most vocal E/C supporters do feel that way they tend to drown out the rest. Still, no excuse. Common sense should prevail and the fact that the most vocal do not speak for all should be remembered.

As far as the "actor-bashing", again, while you may have a valid point we have excellent moderators who do a terrific job of policing what is said. I am no longer a fan of Emily Procter and never really have been a fan of Adam Rodriguez. I try to keep my opinions based upon their interviews and how I feel about their portrayals of their characters. If I cross the line I KNOW I'll hear from Finch or Fieldmouse toot-sweet!

In the past I've had so many enjoyable discussions with other board members who are E/C supporters. But I also recognize and respect there are those who don't feel as they do and that there are times when the writers have used E/C in inappropriate ways. (I've had some really wonderful discussions with posters who are not very fond of Horatio. In the end we have agreed to disagree and I've been grateful for being allowed to discuss my favorite character and why that is so.) Discussions of that type just seem no longer possible with the polarization that has taken place. Once the discussion starts, anger and hostility just seems to naturally follow.

That was the whole intent behind the "Dislike" thread. We finally had a safe-haven where we could vent our feelings without being made to feel that we were somehow less than those who supported E/C. Being told we were "blind" if we didn't see the chemistry, or if we didn't like it to just "stop watching the show", or we "weren't really fans" if we couldn't support E/C, (and you'll see such comments followed us into the initial "Dislike" thread as E/C supporters felt they had to come in and defend E/C) just escalated the hostility and solidified the wall between the two factions.

When E/C became canon the sense that E/C supporters were entitled to be disrespectful because they had "won" and we had lost and we needed to "get over it" intensified - and I would hazard a guess the job of the moderators here became hell on earth!

It would be wonderful to be able to discuss E/C and their impact on the show in a realistic, rational and respectful manner. But it doesn't seem to be possible without emotions taking over and the fanatical elements feeling threatened.

 

I have absolutely no problem with a dislike a storyline thread.My only issue is that fans are not allowed to have a "Like a storyline" one with the same liberties we have here.The rules of Shipper central are more my thing ,either the specific ships or the dislike a ship ones so I will most likely not post in either one but I still do not get why the difference in alllowing a thread and not the other.I know it has been explained but I will never get it.

And of course ,I would like to come to the spoiler thread to only talk about spoilers.There are so many talented people here that it is shame that we can not take advantage of that and have a good talk about it.I have seen that in some sections if fans go out of topic the post is moved to an appropiate thread so maybe we can have that.

 

You mean you can't talk about how much you like the romance storyline of E/C in the shipper thread? (It's been awhile since I've reviewed specific rules around here ... sorry). It seems to be connected to the thread, so why couldn't you talk about the show's storyline in the thread? It's just a question b/c it seems weird to me.

As for having a "like" storyline thread, I think that would go w/the episode discussions, probably - plus can you imagine how many threads we would create if we had all these like/dislike threads? I just think E/C is a huge issue right now and the dislike thread has let fans who don't like this storyline state their reasons why w/out being flamed.

I was also thinking of something else in regard to the other CSI shows (which I don't really follow too closely) - I was reading about how Danny and Lindsay from CSI:NY got married and had a baby, and I thought, why is there not the same tension on the NY boards regarding that storyline as there is w/ Eric and Cal? (Maybe there is, but at first glance it doesn't appear to be so). I guess the question is, what makes E/C so much more of a contentious debate than, say Danny and Lindsay, or other CSIs who've gone canon, like Grissom and Sarah? (I know the Grissom/Sarah Canon relationship did have people who voiced their dislike in a big way, but it still doesn't seem like it grew to the extent the E/C debate has grown). Just something I was thinking about ... any comments? Maybe it can help us work things out here in the Miami threads?

 

A couple of reasons come to mind:
(1) The other relationships mentioned did not overwhelm the show, to the detriment of all other characters and storylines;
(2) I don't routinely watch the other 2 CSI's either, but there seemed to be some chemistry with those pairings. We see none here, just TPTB hellbent on cramming it down our throats;
(3) CSI Miami apparently forbids any other romance for its characters beyond E/C. I can only assume Horatio, Frank, Natalia, Ryan, et al, are celibate, judging from the scripts over the last 3 years. :guffaw:They may as well do closing scenes in the parish rectory or the convent.

 

Lindsey isn't seen every episode,the relationship isn't present all the time.
I find(IMO) whatever is going on with cases or even other characters ,it seems to be presented in how it effects Calleigh and Eric or how it effects their relationship.
This clearly can be seen in the last few episodes of this season,it seemed as if everything is about them, everything and everyone else is nothing or nothing much compaired to the relationship.Everything else takes a backseat.
That just doesn't happen on NY.

 

A truce? Not that I'm not on board with the idea, but seriously I don't think this is going to work full time. People are entitiled to their own opinion, that's cool. I wonder if it's safe to bring up my problem here:

~Moderators, or anyone, I don't care anymore: it's still unfair to have TWO (2) (Dos) dislike threadsne for the whole franchise and one specifically for CSImiami EC romance. It's the same as me putting up a fanfiction thread here and to have it taken away because there's one in the other discussion board... so why not this thread? It'd make more sense to put the discussion in one place.

~As much as it bugs me to see the thread there everytime I come on, it's ok for some reason for some of those guys to be expressing their hate for the relationship on OTHER threads...and we COULDNT ever under NO circumstances say 'I love EC, and blah blah blah'. We'd be punished for it.

yes, make a truce and say you know what 'It's a damn TV show I'm coming on here to cuss about, let me just chill because I'm no writer and I have no control about it'

it's for the people who dislike it so much, it's be better to stop discussing it in this way becasue all it does it get you angry...who wants to be angry? Get me? Just think about it though.

it's like team edward and team jacob sigh....can't we all get along? lol Yeah, Imma go off topic for a second, in Eclipse they do compromise, so if they can, I think we can.

 

I'm not a Mod & I know this wasn't directed to me, but I don't understand the big difference in having the dislike thread in the main forum opposed to shipper central. The dislike thread pertains to a ship but it's also in HOW the storyline effects the entire show & certain episodes -- that's why it's there. Also, not eveyone ventures into shipper central. Fans of the show who don't like the storyline may not ever go into SC to find the appropriate place to discuss why they don't like it. The SC debate thread is for all ships of CSI:Miami, not just Eric/Calleigh.
Furthermore, the dislike thread was never intended in becoming a secondary debate thread between who's hot & who's not. It was strictly a place to elaborate on the STORYLINE, not necessarily a 'SHIP'.

That is not true. Shipper related comments, good or bad, are fine in episode threads & spoiler threads AS LONG as it pertains to a spoiler or the episode and as long as the 'ship' is "in play" & part of an actual storyline. Again, I am no Mod, but I do know that it's not & never has been a rule to not be able to comment on a ship if they're part of a storyline. The only time Mods try to ease up on 'ship' talk is in the actors threads, & that's only out of respect for other fans of said actor who may not be a 'shipper'.

Verbally expressing on a topic that you loathe (or love for that matter) doesn't increase one's feelings -- it helps the poster to be able to vent "out loud" & discuss it with others who feel the same. Much like therapy. It's a support system, & I love having it in this forum. E/C fans have the same therapy/support systems as well. It makes you feel better to express how you feel, correct? Even at times when you're angry at tptb? Or just in everyday life when somethings ticked you off & you feel strongly about it? It's no different for non-e/c fans. Walk a mile in a non-e/c fans shoes & watch a show sideline fan favorites for the sake of "romantic storyline" -- you might understand more.