Episode 8x16 - "LA" ***CONTAINS SPOILERS***

Discussion in 'CSI: Miami' started by FieldMouse, Feb 27, 2010.

  1. slower

    slower Lab Technician

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    I can understand your points Delynn.

    I have sat here and watched all season and every now and then they would throw us a bone giving us some time to see our favorite characters; then it was back to the focus on the new characters or the character that never left. I do like Ryan and Walter together; they play off each other so well. I've said this before that Jesse is more of the straight man of the three. Jesse's character is more stoic and doesn't wear his heart on his sleeve like Hotch from Criminal Minds (BTW one of my fav shows), but even though Hotch isn't very emotional; his eyes will sometimes give it away. Eddie for me is hard to read. DC on the other hand I can just feel it; he is so good at the subtle emotion.

    I wasn't in the group that trashed Eddie when I heard about him joining the cast; for me it was a wait and see. Of course I wasn't impressed the first half of the season; due to the over-the-top scripts they wrote for Eddie. Making us think he was the solution to what ails Miami. Well the writers have toned him down a bit and so my position has softened. I also realize that they started a storyline and have to follow through with it.

    I'm holding out for next season and maybe some good storlines for Ryan, Nat, and Frank; but not too much hope with the return of AR full time. And NO!!! I do not want to see them rotating episodes; just because tptb were nuckle heads and hired too many actors.
     
  2. ruby&theheadmen

    ruby&theheadmen Lab Technician

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    Wow, saying that Horatio and Jesse are very much alike is quite a stretch- Jesse seems pretty hollow to me and so malleable that he doesn't have a unique look of his own- I can see in him a shallow version of Errol Flynn, or in this last epi, he looked so much like the villain that I had to look twice (by the way of facial hair) to see who was who- be interesting though if the bad guy turned out to be a blood relative of Cardoza though. Unfortunately, I find him to be too transparent and shallow; subsequently, he does not generate much interest for me as a character. But to compare him to Horatio? NO WAY!


    Horatio is in a class all by himself- truly unique in a world where semantically speaking, everyone is unique. Every look, word, gesture and what is not said is ever a mystery, ever intriguing, multi-dimensional and complex- one only wants to see more and more. That's why I wish the franchise would do at least something on the HBO, Showtime format.

    As I have said before, hopefully, things will settle down in the Fall and we can all look forward to every episode with bated breath as we did in times past. :angel:
     
  3. Delynn

    Delynn CSI Level One

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    I don't think I was attempting to compare Horatio to Jesse. Maybe it appeared that way. What I was trying to do was point out that, IMO, the actors, Caruso and Cibrian, are both from the acting school of less is more. They are both subtle in their approach. How well they pull it off is open to interpretation.

    I think Caruso is a master who has fine tuned Horatio to perfection. And he's had 7 full seasons to do it. Watching the entire show from day one, it's been fascinating to watch him create Horatio.

    I like Jesse. I think that Cibrian has done a pretty good job with him. Considering he's only had half a season I think there is a harsh and very quick rush to judgment. Very few have been willing to give him a chance and for many it has a lot to do with the fact that they feel he was hired as a replacement for Eric and still others have clearly stated they are judging based him on personal issues that are none of our business.

    Horatio has become a iconic character and Caruso deserves total credit for that. I'm a huge fan. And as a huge I've watched him be attacked and maligned for years. That's why I wish people would lighten up a little on Cibrian and give him a fair chance. I don't think all the criticism is justified, nor do I think it's all based upon his acting skills.

    Eric is coming back next season full-time. I don't understand why all the animosity for Jesse is still there. He is no longer "replacing" Eric.

    There is only one thing that will make me look forward to next season with bated breath ... and with Eric's return, that ain't gonna happen! :(
     
  4. Enhinti

    Enhinti Rookie

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    In Hostile Take over, Jesse instead of a natural reaction to someone being shoot (looks around for something to stop the bleeding, finds the clean tee shirts, and uses them), Jesse did something that made no sense. He took his shirt off without looking around, and used that. Unnatural. I watch this episode about six times. It still doesn't make any sense. Jesse took his shirt off simply to take it of, and that I find very offensive. As if we, the fans are going to like his because he's a hunk of flesh. I'd like to think that we are all more smart and mature then that! How degrading!



    Yuck!
    Of course Jesse isn't teary eyed and crying! His wife died two years ago! Not two hours ago!
    When people are have different emotions, they show up in the eyes even if a person is being controlled and calm. The eyes change even slightly as the thoughts change. Jesse's eyes do not change. He has one expression worried/scared. He is not pained, or compassionate, or bitter, or brooding, or anything. Yes, he did get a little angry but really his face, his eyes did not reflect that at all. He has no feelings.

    H and Jesse are nothing alike. In H, when he is feeling something, you can see it in his eyes. It may be slight, it maybe for a second, but you see the change. This makes him human. a caring, feeling person. Jesse has no change no depth. He has no feeling.

    This is a Crime Drama not a teen soap opera.
    No yelling or crying, please.
    Jesse has had one expression the entire time. He eyes tell no story. The camera is always on his face, so if they did, I would have seem it. Jesse has been given a lot of drama to work with in spite of all the poor writing this season, and yet he has no feeling in any of it. He gave the same look to Ryan when Ryan walked off after winning Rock-Paper-Scissars that he gave to Calleigh when he first told her about his wife's murder! Really. Show something man!

    It is true that all of the CSIs have been in trouble and nearly all of them have done bad or questionable things.
    The differences are this.
    Most of the bad in a character has spread throughout many episodes, or even seasons.
    Jesse seems to have done two or three seasons worth of bad in 16 episodes!
    And the other character were presented or presented themselves in a sympathetic way.
    There is nothing in Jesse to like or feel for.

    He was either or in "Out of Time"
    I Hostile Take over, he miss handle the situation and got Danielle shot. I watched in too many times. Jesse should have known not to aggravate that man that way.

    Jesse stalks Anna, and even though it was obvious that she would not want to talk to him and that she was very upset, and probably raped, he walks right up to her and stands over her like she owes him something! How cruel can a man be?!?

    He stood Natti up, when there was no reason for him to go out wit her any way! Why did he ask her out?!? Just says he's mean and unfeeling!

    He doesn't act like he cares about anyone past or present. He bullies witnesses for no reason.

    He goes into a meth lab, where he should know that even firing a gun at the floor could set it off. No matter, he shoot his gun anyway, and pokes fun at Walter for being horrified! He puts his team mates in danger and then laughs at them?!?
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2010
  5. kala79

    kala79 Lab Technician

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    Why does everyone keep saying that Eddie will leave the show? There was not an unofficial even word about it yet. Eddie was not supposed to be Adam's replacement in the first place, so if he has to go(and it's a big maybe) it will not be his fault.
    I didn't notice also improvement in Ryan's and Nat's screentime due to Adam's absence and very rare EC moments this season. I've seen two episodes of this season only, so my opinion is mostly based on what you guys say(write) and youtube clips, but obviously it's writers who have a hard time to balance a screentime and it's nobody else's fault.
     
  6. Finch

    Finch Funnier in Enochian Super Moderator

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    People are often unpredictable and reactive during tense and scary situations -- I would consider someone shot and bleeding to death to be one of those situations.

    Yes, the scene was probably inserted to show everyone what a great body the new character has but given what was happening in the scene, it's not entirely implausible that his first reaction was to use his own clothing to stop the bleeding instead of taking a look around the room. Some are calm under pressure, some are explosive and others do the first thing that comes to mind.

    As a fan of the show in general, I found it a little annoying that they chose to undress their new character already but looking back, it wasn't too far off base -- in my eyes.

    It's really subjective though. Sometimes I don't feel like H connects with me as viewer at all and other times I feel a gamete of emotion from him -- same with Jesse. It's all about how the actors portray their characters and what the viewers take away from it (if anything at all).

    Regarding Jesse's behaviour during 'LA', I'd have to agree with what was said previously with regards to how people deal with loss and pain. I've never seen Jesse as the 'shed tears and question the meaning of life' type character. He's always seemed closed-off, which is the reason Calleigh didn't trust him at the beginning of the season (apparently it's a crime not to air your dirty laundry to everyone) and during the tape recording scene.

    Having said that, I actually found Calleigh's behaviour a little more irritating than Jesse's. He was probably in the wrong for a lot of the things he did and though some might see Calleigh's reaction ("step away from the car" all angry-like) as objective and/or suspicious, I found it unnecessarily hostile. Many may disagree but that's my view. I think Calleigh needs to lighten up a bit yet. *shrug*
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2010
  7. Enhinti

    Enhinti Rookie

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    I thought it was correct of Calleigh.
    She has good reason to be very suspicious of Jesse.
    Wanting to keep things quiet and not just to conclusions, she chose to protect Jesse, by going to the garage alone.
    But being a very tiny woman, and knowing that Jesse is just as well trained as she is, she took that precaution to protect herself.
    If Jesse had tried to take her down, it is quite posable that he could have. She was right to tell him to back off and open it. And when he wasn't quick to comply, she was perfectly correct to bark the order.
    Think about the elevator scene with Reggie in Power Trip. Should Calleigh not have take precaution then?
     
  8. GregNickRyanFan

    GregNickRyanFan Holographic Moderator Moderator

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    I completely agree with you, Geni. I've seen many shows/movies, etc where there was a situation like that and person closest or first responder used an article of their clothing to try to stop the bleeding. Whether it was an overshirt with buttons or a thin jacket, sweater, etc. Jesse didn't have all of that on. So the only thing close by that he had was his own shirt. :lol: Should they have avoided the shirtless scene by giving Jesse an overshirt and having him use that instead? Certainly, but I fail to see how that is the actor's or character's fault as opposed to tptb. It seems like the actor/character is getting nearly the full brunt of the blame on that one when it was not his fault. I'm sure he didn't go up to tptb and say, "Please can I take my shirt off and show my hot bod on my second episode?" :lol:

    He took his shirt off because that's what was in the script. And believe me that scene bugged me too even though I didn't necessarily mind seeing him shirtless, but the way it was done and so soon was obvious that tptb were trying to sell him as the new hot bod on the show. I blame the writers/producers/show-runners, not the actor/character. It's not Jesse/Eddie who was offensive with that scene, its TPTB. Like I said, I was annoyed when I read that he was gonna pull off his shirt and I actually happen to like the guy. :lol: I don't blame Eddie/Jesse for that scene just like I don't blame Adam/Eric whenever they have him shirtless on the show.

    The actors/characters are not the proper place to put the blame IMO. If the character is in a situation like he's trying to steal another man's girl and he goes, "I'll take my shirt off and show my hot bod then she'll want me and not him" and then takes off his shirt and gets the girl. :lol: Then it would be the character's fault. Otherwise and especially in a scene like a hostage situation, it isn't the character's fault. Tptb is where the blame lies. I feel they did Eddie/Jesse a great disservice by having him shed his shirt that soon personally.

    In the same respect, I find it highly offensive when they have the ladies wearing blouses that are way too low cut. But I do not blame the actresses or the character for that (unless the character does it to seduce someone they shouldn't be seducing or something along those lines lol- which so far hasn't exactly happened on this show lol). I blame tptb and maybe even the wardrobe department for those choices. :lol:

    And I don't think anyone's saying Calleigh shouldn't have protected herself in the scene with Jesse. I think what people are saying is that she could have been more like, "Jesse, I don't know why or if you did what they say you did, but I'm going to have to ask you to step away from the car" while pointing her gun at him.
     
  9. Finch

    Finch Funnier in Enochian Super Moderator

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    Agreed here. It's definitely possible that if Jesse was the bad guy or had malicious intentions, Calleigh would need to protect herself. From her perspective, he could have attacked her without warning (though as much as Jesse's trained, so is Calleigh. I have no doubt that if it had come down to it, she would have been able to make a fair attempt at stopping him before it went any further.).

    It's not so much her words I have a problem with, it's the tone. She could have easily said "Step back" without creating further tension and elevating the situation to a point where it didn't need to be. I just thought the way she was 'barking' the orders at him was unnecessary and made the scene seem silly to me -- almost as if the writers were trying to make a big deal out of it to make the fans go "ooooh it's getting intense" when I really didn't feel it was or had to be.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2010
  10. Enhinti

    Enhinti Rookie

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    I wasn't complaining that the actor took his shirt off. I never said that Eddie C was offensive.
    I was saying that the character Jesse shouldn't have, that the way it was done was so unnatural looking, and in-your-face, that I found it offensive. Jesse was offensive.
    I'm not the only one who didn't care at all about Eric's shirtlessness in episodes but was irritated by "Hostile Takeover"

    I don't care either way about Eddie C or his personal life. Or how he handles complaints.

    I gave Jesse the same chance I gave Ryan, Natti, and Tara.
    I was concerned that his looked didn't fit into the style of Miami, but that was all.
    Jesse slimly doesn't cut it. He is boring, unfeeling, and unlikable, and 2D.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2010
  11. MiamiWolfe

    MiamiWolfe Pathologist

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    I saw Eddie on an episode of Criminal Minds and thought he did a good job of playing a serial killer, so IMO, he is a decent actor.


    I agree that everyone deals with grief and loss in different ways, and men aren't taught that it is alright to express those emotions. Jesse struck me as being numb and distant and trying to hold it together to get done what he needed to get done. Horatio never really struck me as cold; his emotions seemed just below the surface and he used those to get the bad guy (and I would HATE to be that person!!) Other that the guest starring role in Criminal Minds and CSI:M, I haven't seen Eddie in much else but I think he does a decent job of acting.

    I agree. Jesse has really grown on me. I like him for no other reason than he treats Ryan well.

    My position as well. I never blamed Jesse/Eddie but the writers. Maybe fresh blood there?

    Especially when it concerns Ryan who seems to come out at the short end of that stick.


    I agree.


    It will probably be next season for them. There is a way to juggle this cast; I just don't think these writers are up to the task.
     
  12. Delynn

    Delynn CSI Level One

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    I spent a couple years as a civilian employee of a law enforcement agency and I can tell you the best officers were those who knew how to speak to people in a firm, respectful and polite manner. And that is exactly how they were trained to address people. They know how to de-escalate rather than escalate a situation.

    The way Calleigh spoke to Jesse definitely inflamed the situation and escalated the tension level. If Jesse truly were an unstable suspect, the cadence in her voice as well as her delivery would have served to incite - not calm.

    Horatio's demeanor is an excellent example of how you calmly and firmly take command of the situation. He is generally respectful, always calm but firm, and very rarely raises his voice. In fact he is more dangerous because he doesn't raise his voice.

    Calleigh over-compensates and it's officers like her who cause people to get hurt.
     
  13. BauerAlmeida

    BauerAlmeida Rookie

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    Never! I could never suggest to anyone to trash our original stars! Actually to be perfectly honest, I was totally in Ryan's camp when he first appeared, I never hated him for taking Speed's place despite me being a huge Speed fan. I always thought that it was inevitable and that it was not Ryan's fault that he had to step in. And I adore Jon, I think he is amazing and deserves to be in more storylines. Same thing for Eva and Rex, both of them deserves a lot more than the writers have given them. It's shame, and I think that's something that the show seriously needs to rectify. And if Jesse has to take a back seat to let those three have their shining moments, I'm not gonna complain one bit because Eva, Jon, and Rex have all more than deserved it!:)

    I believe that was David's best scene EVER! That moment was truly acting perfection! I couldn't stop crying for weeks after that!

    Completely agreed!

    That is in the fault of TPTB and the writers, who clearly wants to capitalize and sell the hunkness. But it doesn't make Jesse offensive. What was wrong with using his shirt? He reacted in the moment and did the first thing that came to mind, using his shirt to stop the bleeding. Would you rather that he spent time running around looking for stuff while the woman bleeds to death? It's not like he's the first person in the world to take off a shirt to stop someone from bleeding to death. This is hardly some new development or novel idea.

    And how do you know that Jesse took off his shirt simply because HE wanted to take it off? Where you inside his head? Are you a psychic? Would be any other purpose to take off his shirt? Did he want the gunman to love his body or something, make himself look cool? It was a simple answer. A woman was bleeding to death and Jesse took care of the situation in the way he could, using his own shirt as a way to prevent the bleeding. And besides, he was handed another lab shirt to wear less than a minute later.

    The only thing offensive is the writers/producers' assumption that we the fans are idiots who drool over every hot guy. But the character himself did not act in any way offensive.

    Well, that is a subjective opinion isn't it? You didn't see it, but I did. I saw everything I needed to see in his eyes. So I guess on this matter, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

    Jesse and H are cut from the same cloth, they both came from the macho school of men. They may not be exactly the same, but they are similar in the sense that both men are the quiet stoic type who for the most part is very calm and composed.

    like I said before, that's rather subjective. I saw a huge difference.

    The guy's only been in a season, and the closest thing he's done to something horrible and bad is planting a bug on the guy who possibly killed his wife. So please don't give any of that stuff about Jesse being so horrible. The guy's a saint compared to the crap that the other characters have faced, even in one season. And how was Jesse not sympathetic? The guy's wife was killed, he's allowed some anger and secrecy.

    Oh yes of course, let's just blame it all on Jesse for being a stupid idiot. How about blaming the crazy person who was waving a gun? At least Jesse had good intentions trying to help. You make it sound like he did in on purpose or he was such a horrible person.

    So that was not the most sensitive thing he's ever done. But guess what, the situation wasn't exactly all fun and games, it was hard on both of them and Jesse reacted wrongly, so he reacted like an actual human being who has something to prove and wants to be able to prove something he did was right if not find his wife's murderer.

    This is hardly the worst thing that any of the CSIs has done.

    Maybe if you watched closely then you'd have seen that he was going to tell her what was going on, he was going to explain why Anna and him know each other. But at the time of the date, he went to Anna's house to keep an eye on her so leaving Natalia on her own. But then the next day he went to apologize to Natalia, so it's not like he was totally unfeeling or mean just because he likes to be. It just so happens that this thing about his wife became more important than anything else in his life. And THAT is hardly wrong.

    Bullies? Oh please, like Calleigh, Ryan, Frank, Eric, or even Horatio hasn't bullied witnesses or suspects? If you're gonna do this whole act about Jesse being tough and harsh, then any of the CSIs has done it, Jesse isn't alone in this. There were clear moments shown where he cares about people and the witnesses. But hey, if you choose to have selective memory about it, then fine.

    He shot his gun to stop the timer, if he hadn't then both of them would be blown up. Oh but of course, this is all just Jesse's fault for being stupid.:shifty:

    Would you rather that he just stood there and waited for that timer to run out? Maybe then you'd get to call him a stupid idiot for letting himself get blown up, then you can blame on him some more. He was trying to SAVE Walter's life by stopping that timer the only way he could. So yes, he took a risk with the gunshot, but it paid off didn't it. Both him and Walter made it out alive and no injuries.

    And as for laughing....have you ever heard of easing up the situation? You make it sound like he was mocking Walter when instead he was trying to be humorous so that none of it would be so traumatizing and scary. It's a tactic that law enforcement uses, and sometimes even normal people in dangerous situations uses it to relax and calm down too.

    Well, considering that Jesse is a teammate, would it kill her to possibly give him just the benefit of the doubt? Let's face it, Calleigh acted the way Calleigh has always acted when she's suspicious, she barks orders and becomes harsh, and how many times has Ryan fallen under the same temper of Calleigh's when it's Ryan doing something wrong?

    Yes she should be cautious, but considering Jesse was a friend of Horatio's, he was someone that Horatio approved of, would it be that terrible for her to think that maybe Horatio is a good judge of character and that the man who just told her that his wife was killed may have some good reasons? Would it be that hard to just hear it out instead of barking orders and possibly angering Jesse?
     
  14. Enhinti

    Enhinti Rookie

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    Yes. Danielle was bleeding to death. And yes, Jesse, used his shirt to stop the bleeding. But the natural reacting to seeing some one hurt is LOOKING for something to help. You do not see the shirt you are wearing, and Jesse never looked around. You may not believe it, but I actually have some experience here. People look around to find something to help. The first reaction is not to tear off their own clothes.

    A part of the character, a huge part, is what the writers write. Another huge part is how the director wan't the shot. Both of these things are out of the actor's control but are still a part of the character.
    The writers wrote the scene very badly, thus making the character Jesse offensive.
    I'll blame the writers, sure. I'm already mad at them for this season and blaming them for much of the problem with Jesse.
    You want all the blame of the writers? I can't go with that because the directors and the actor still do a lot.
    I am frustrated with Eddie's poor acting skills and I feeling the directing has made it worse.
    Which ever way it goes, the character is still offensive.


    We can agree to disagree, but I hope you realize that your opinion of his eyes is just as subjective as mine is.


    They are both quiet and stoic but so is about a third of all men on earth. If you only have two or three types of men, then, yes, H and Jesse are the same. But I don't care to see that little difference in people. H and Jesse are very much apart in may ways. Just as Ryan and Eric and Frank are all very different. They are all five macho men. Especially Frank, but I don't see H and Frank as the same, or Jesse and Frank as the same. Way too much generalization!


    It is attitude and feeling which endears. Most all of the of the characters we call regulars were originally presented in a positive light. (Frank is really the only exception). When they did bad stuff we already liked them, there for we forgave them/felt for them. Jesse has not been at all. He has no feeling, and one attitude. Boring. He's not endearing. Therefore when he does something wrong even a little wrong it is worse, because there is no counter to balance him out.
    I believe that Jesse bad in these 16 episodes has been more then any other character in pick 16 consecutive episodes. But in this this again, we will have to disagree.

    Jesse may have had good intentions, but having been a cop for 15 plus years, I'd think he would know better then to aggravate a crazy person who is waving a gun as much as Jesse did. I don't think he did it on purpose, but he did create a ca-motion. He should have known better.
    I actually blame the crazy man. I felt sorry for him and his son at the end, but what he did was terribly wrong and I hope he is locked up for a very long time.


    I would have understood it, if Jesse showed some pain, if his eyes changed, if he acted as if he was thinking about Tess and how she was brutally taken away from him.
    He did not. He yelled at the freak and his freak side kick, then he went out side, sauntered up to were Natti and Anna were sitting and towered over her, like a passive observer. Yikes! Gave me the creeps!

    No. For that I'm going either with Ryan framing that poor security man, or H shooting the downed gunless freak.

    But it adds to the general negativity which surrounds Jesse. He's not a likable person, because he has not showed anything to like.

    Maybe if I watched closely?!?
    What? Were you there every single time I watched "Kill Clause" that you can say that I need to watch more closely?!?
    Seem to me you are being terribly judgmental here.

    I actually know what happened and "why" Jesse stood Natti up, and "why" he asked her out in the first place. I really do. But it was still not needed, as she really wasn't bugging him about Anna, and he hadn't been bothered by Calleigh's and Ryan's comments. Jesse could have called it off much sooner then when he was supposed to be there. This was terribly cruel, and for some one who is not a sympathetic character, it does nothing to help improve his image.


    Everyone bullies, yes, but when a character is compassionate and also mean, it evens out. With Jesse, he only has one thing on the side of compassionate, that is helping Carlos in "In Plane Sight." Other then that, he has been all negative. It makes for a very lopsided feel.


    Jesse didn't stop the timer any way he could have.
    He firer in a highly explosive building were it should have gone up! Why it didn't is more to bad writing. No cop, would ever do this. It is just stupid!
    What Jesse should have do was yell "Bomb!" and the two of them run like mad.
    Walter and Jesse made it out with no injuries because they had unbelievably good luck considering Jesse fired a gun in a meth house!

    Bad, bad writing.

    You do know that I meant "Laughing" figuratively and not literally as Jesse was not actually laughing. He was making fun of Walter's horrified face. This is not the tactic that people including law enforcement use to calm and relax each other. This is a tactic that people use when they know they shouldn't have done something and want to hide their guilt. They call the other person a "scaredy cat."
    Children do this all the time.
    One steals a cookie. Another say "No! you'll get caught!" and the first says "Scaredy cat!" or "Chicken!"
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2010
  15. Enhinti

    Enhinti Rookie

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    H is wonderful but he isn't perfect, no one is.
    Calleigh can't only rely on H's judgment for everything. She is an intelligent woman who can think for herself. That why H and Calleigh are such a great team!
    She is also Jesse's superior as second in command, a fact which Jesse has not paid much attention to.
    She was right to bark orders to him under the circumstances. And if Jesse hadn't backed off and opened the trunk, she should have pulled her gun.

    Calleigh did Jesse a HUGE favor by not taking another team member to witness, or worse a uniform officer who will not have the team loyalty. She kept him from being under criticism from other team members and from IAB by having only herself there.

    Calleigh is protecting Jesse just like she protected H, Ryan, Eric. She considers Jesse apart of the team, and treated him as such.
    I doubt Jesse realized how fortunate he actually was.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2010

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