Domestic Abuse/Violence

Discussion in 'Miscellaneous' started by Urban Legend, Jun 23, 2010.

  1. Urban Legend

    Urban Legend Captain

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    I thought we should have a good debate thread ... and for some reason I thought of Domestic Abuse. I absolutely despise men who lay a hand on their wife/girlfriend/children etc and if need be ... a woman who lays their hands on their husbands etc.

    But I do feel that a lot of the woman have a choice to leave ... but they choose not to out of fear. There's a lot of help out there and they choose to stay and let it happen, that's what I don't agree with. If it happened to me I'd get help ... rather than sit and let it constantly happen.

    Remember to not lash out on everyone's views ... this is a discussion thread and we all have our own opinions.
     
  2. talkingtocactus

    talkingtocactus Coroner

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    this i totally agree with. 100%.

    and yes, i agree, no lashing out and also i think it's important to tread carefully on this thread - you never know whether anyone reading has been subject to this, and it'd be a real shame to offend or upset anyone.

    however....

    it's not as simple as that. domestic violence usually doesn't just involve physical violence (in fact often there's no physicality at all) - it's just as much a psychological thing, and violent partners are very good at wearing down the confidence of the person they're abusing. often they will be excessively possessive, stop the partner going out with or even speaking to their friends/family, and essentially cut off any lines of communication or help outside the relationship. combined with constantly telling the person they're worthless or useless, this leaves the abused partner stuck - they have no one left to turn to, they feel like no one would care anyway because they feel so devalued, and they probably feel like it's their fault and people would judge - none of this is likely to be true in reality but because of the way their mind's been messed with that's how they feel.

    added to that they're almost certainly terrified of what will happen if they leave - threats of violent retribution on leaving are really common (either the abuser threatens that they'll kill them (or even their kids) if they leave, or they say they'll kill themselves - neither scenario is going to make someone more likely to leave).

    it's almost never as simple with these things as just getting up and walking out. some people are able to get out before things get too bad, but for many many people, the psychological trauma is at least as bad as the physical - in fact i think possibly worse as at least physical scars heal up, the psychological damage can be a lot more long lasting (trust issues, self esteem, basic fear etc). and usually the psychological abuse starts long before any physical abuse, so by the time the violence starts, the abused partner is already in a position where they feel completely trapped.

    it's not really appropriate to say they should leave or do this or that because observers are unable to understand that feeling which makes it impossible to leave, for someone in a perfectly healthy state of mind, it seems strange that someone would stay, but it can't be judged on standard, rational emotional responses. however it is possible to understand that feeling that way might make someone's responses different from "the norm" (not that there even is a norm, but you know what i mean). to judge the actions of someone in a psychological trauma by what someone in a healthy mind set would do just invalidates the abused party's feelings. to say "oh well you could just leave" suggests that all that psychological trauma that makes it impossible for them to do so is just a figment of their imagination or something and should just be got over. that's just not true or practical or right - psychological damage is extremely real and can't be dismissed. if it contributes to someone's not leaving then it's a valid psychological response and shouldn't be devalued by people who aren't going through that, because all that will do is make the abused party feel guilty and more worthless.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2010
  3. _Hush_

    _Hush_ Winchester Inc.

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    I'm siding with the Teddy bear doctor on this one. However, I do believe that emotional and psychological abuse is an enormous factor in this issue.

    Yet. This is 2010 with an overflow of communication and information. I don't believe that anyone hasn't been informed on domestical abuse and what steps to undertake. I'm not saying there is no excuse for staying with an abuser, but the facilities, the help is there. The subject is no longer taboo as it was ten to fifteen years ago. Symptoms of abuse can be caught very early, leaving no/less room for further psychological damage.
    I'm not talking about people who've been abused for over thirty years or so, because then my theory no longer has value, but the early cases can be stopped on time.
     
  4. GregNickRyanFan

    GregNickRyanFan Holographic Moderator Moderator

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    From personal experience, I have to say that I agree with pretty everything in the above quote. Although when it happened to me, I was still a teen, so cutting me off entirely from my family was pretty impossible, but he did try to cut me off from friends. And the abuse was less physical than other things. Only physicality to it was once a slap and some pushing and shoving (as far as I can recall). The rest of it was emotional, verbal, psychological, etc. Basically, the verbal and all of that was probably more damaging than the rest because physical scars often heal a lot faster than emotional ones. The relationship ended when both of our families moved to pursue other jobs, so thankfully he didn't want to continue a long distance relationship (of course he didn't want to, because he couldn't control me from long distance).

    There is no doubt in my mind that if it had continued and if we'd gotten married or something, it probably would have been a lot worse and the physical abuse would have probably increased. Looking back now, I'm pretty sure that I was not truly in love with the guy, but I do think I tried hard to force myself into believing that I was. I'm not sure if I ever felt that it was my fault though except only in the sense that it was my fault that I let him treat me that way. I ignored that gut instinct that I got when he first asked me out. That little voice in the back of my head that said "do not go out with his guy, he's not a good guy". In that sense it was most definitely my fault.

    However, I was definitely afraid of what he'd do if I broke up with him. I had some guy friends, so I was worried he'd think I was breaking up with him to be with one of them... and I was worried that he'd hurt them. He had many of the signs of an abuser and stalker, so I was fearful of that as well. And I had nightmares for years after it ended, but eventually they stopped.

    There are probably some leftover issues from the ordeal as far as trusting people goes, but generally I just tend to listen to my gut instincts the way I didn't when I was younger.

    To anyone out there who may be reading this and is in an abusive situation: Please try to seek help. Trust me, I know it isn't easy, but please try.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2010
  5. silentdisco

    silentdisco Police Officer

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    It's easy to say "If it were me, I'd get help" if you've never been in an abusive situation.

    While I'm sure you mean well, I can tell that you really don't have a grasp on what abuse really is and how it completely destroys the victim. An abusive relationship is rarely just physical abuse. It involves verbal, emotional, and often sexual abuse. An abuser often completely erodes any sense of self-esteem the victim once had. Therefore, the victim is incapable of thinking they can get out: their thoughts are more often like "I'll never find anyone better than my partner" and "I deserve this treatment".

    When leaving an abusive partner, there is always the fear that abandoning them will enrage them and lead to more violence. This fear is legitimate: every day in the U.S. more than 3 people are murdered by an intimate partner.

    Yes, there are more resources today, but there still aren't enough, especially in rural areas. It's hard to find a women's shelter that's not in a suburban or urban area.
     
  6. babydoll

    babydoll Victim

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    I rarely post here but I stumbled across this and wanted to respond...

    I gotta say I agree with silentdisco above there...

    While it's easy to say I would never let a man treat me that way... not only is there mental/emotional/psychological abuse involved... the women is usually in love with the man. And while that alone is not always enough, that combined with the destroyed self-esteem, confidence, self-respect and self-worth caused by the abuse in whatever form... makes it extremely difficult for a women to just make a decision to leave. Especially so if the 'guy' (assuming) is providing stability, roof over their head etc... it's not black and white.

    An entirely different example, but might help bring perspective: I am 20, incredibly independent yet smothered by my over-protected family... last year I moved out as I had the money too and I needed to develop my independence... then I began Uni, but locally, so moved into halls of residence... however I still see my family regularly due to ties to my home community... I am now in a position that I cannot afford to live on my own next year... so I am not only moving back in with my parents for the summer, but the chances of me moving out in Sept are slim... I know that after a few weeks of being back there... I will be patronised, and I will be in a position where I always have to tell my parents exactly where I'm going, who I'm with and when I'll be back... I hate that, I'm 20, and I'm used to things being different... they have a way of making me feel like I can't go out without their permission, which is ridiculous, because I'm a responsible adult.

    In the same way, a women in a committed relationship, finds herself in ties she cannot break, she loses her independence in the relationship... especially considering a lot of abusers are insecure, hence domineering and over-protective. This leaves a women trapped... it's hard for her to leave his side long enough for her to do something he doesn't know about... how is she possibly supposed to make arrangements to part herself from him, without him being suspicious? And of course... when he is suspicious, he will take it out on her... only more abuse, of all kinds. This after a certain amount of time, can scare a women into not even considering taking a risk, to not make him suspicious, to reduce the abuse. It really isn't in black and white.
     
  7. talkingtocactus

    talkingtocactus Coroner

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    they can, in theory, and of course most people like to think that they'd bolt at the first hint of violence, but again i just don't think it's that simple. if you're in love with someone and/or they have emotional control over you (which is very possible because the psychological abuse usually starts before the violence and people are often pretty worn down once the violence itself starts), you just can't leave. even without the control element it's hard to leave someone you have emotional ties to, even if they do something you know is wrong. and i would place money on there being many many women (and indeed men) who say they would never stand for it and would leave if violence was ever in the equation but who, when it comes down to it, are so tied to the other person emotionally (either by being in love with them otherwise or by being psychologically controlled) would in fact try to come up with all kinds of excuses for the person's behaviour and would then think "it won't happen again, they promised they won't do it again, it's a one off etc etc" - it's all very well to think rationally about these things if you're not involved but much much harder if you're in the middle of it.

    :) (btw that :) was saying thanks for agreeing with what i wrote, not yay for your personal experience, i would never say that!)

    luckily it's never happened to me, not really - the only time it came close was a guy who was incredibly possessive and jealous and clingy/needy etc, it drove me insane! the only time he came close to violence was when i ended it - he trashed my flat and tried to break the door down with a fire extinguisher and then made a somewhat pathetic attempt at stalking me for a few weeks. i sometimes think if i'd stayed with him it could've got worse. he only trashed my flat that night but i was kind of scared, because it wouldn't have taken much for him to start on me.

    absolutely - i think in most traumatic situations that's probably true really but particularly in this. bruises and stuff can heal, but the inability to trust anyone, the fear that everyone's gonna try to control you, the feeling worthless etc, that doesn't just go away. i think the clearest evidence for that is that so many abused women end up in relationships with other violent men (and of course this can be reversed because women do abuse men too) - so so many women leave a violent partner only to end up with another one just because their self esteem has been so thoroughly demolished that they don't have the confidence to find someone who'll appreciate them for themself, the psychological abuse becomes the norm for them. it's also true that many many people who were physically abused as kids end up in violent relationships - i think that's very indicative that the psychological effects are really really long term.


    exactly, i agree with all of this. i think the statistics over here in the uk are just as scary. when someone gets to that level of violence it's incredibly hard to leave, their reaction is just too unpredictable, it's so hard to know if you'd be safe; your confidence has been totally wiped out, so you may feel you have no where to go or that you don't deserve better etc, and even if you did, you'd find it hard to trust even those people who tried to help, or indeed your own ability to get out effectively.

    it always saddens me that so much is made of stranger assault and rape (which, don't get me wrong, are awful) when in fact that majority of assaults and rapes are by someone the victim knows, often a partner - it's all well telling people to be suspicious of strangers but being suspicious of those close to you is equally important.

    true - i just read a statistic (for the uk) that 30% of dv begins or intensifies during pregnancy - which is another factor, if you're in a position where to leave is really difficult, being pregnant is just another issue there - partly from a physical point of view, if you're heavily pregnant then leaving must be more difficult, but also emotionally it must be much harder to strike out on your own during pregnancy, and i assume there would also be some kind of deeper emotional attachment if the abusive guy was also the father. it's just never as simple as getting up and walking away - although i think we'd all like to think it was :(
    [slightly off topic, sorry]
    oh god i know *exactly* what you mean! i moved out of home at 17 and to a flat by myself in london at 18, and had proper independence - job, wage, flat, etc. anyway, i had a major flare up in my bipolar when i was in my mid 20s and after 3 years in and out of psych units they deemed me unsafe to live alone, so i had to go back to my parents place at 27. god, it was HELL. i had one tiny room, my parents don't know how to knock, we don't exactly have the best relationship anyway, they're intrusive, patronising, and demand to know what's going on all the time. in the end the 5-6 months i lived there after hospital made me more ill than i'd been before, i literally did not sleep (at all) for 6 whole months, the hospital were on the verge of sectioning me (again!) as it got so bad - the only reason they didn't was that i escaped that meeting and jumped a train to wales. actually my mum in particular is very controlling like that and my therapist thinks she has a lot to answer for in the psychological effect she has on me - but i'm pathetic when it comes to her; i don't love my mum (or my dad) but i find it impossible to stand up to them, i can't say no, nothing like that, so they just walk all over me, and as much as i'm aware it's wrong and want to change it i just can't. it's quite sad, i'm 33 for chrissakes! but it means i can kind of understand the whole psychological control thing - it's not the same, of course, but i'm generally a fairly confident person, but around my mum, i'm totally pathetic. anyway, i got out of my parents house eventually, went to live with a mate and things improved - hurrah :) i hope your spell with yours isn't quite as disastrous!! [/ot]
     
  8. Urban Legend

    Urban Legend Captain

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    Well excuse me if you think you know all about me but the truth is I have been abused when I was a teenager ... and I made the choice to get help and tell authorities. Some women are too scared to do it, but I did ... and you have no right to assume that it hasn't happened to me because it has.

    This is supposed to be a discussion thread not a thread where you can make assumptions when I post my opinions. If this continues to get like this I'm sure I can get a mod to close it because quite frankly I'm quite appalled that you think you can put a label on me and assume that.
     
  9. silentdisco

    silentdisco Police Officer

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    I didn't mean to imply that I know everything about you, and I'm sorry if I offended you. That was not my intent. I'm sorry you experienced abuse as a teen, and I admire your bravery and ability to find the strength to reach out for help.

    Again, I'm sorry if I made unfair assumptions about you.

    I do, however find your statement "There's a lot of help out there and they choose to stay and let it happen, that's what I don't agree with." problematic. In many cases, staying in an abusive relationship, even temporarily, is a survival mechanism. An abuse victim doesn't just "let" the abuse happen by staying, and it's unfair to phrase it as "letting it happen", as that crosses the line into victim-blaming.

    It's important to realize that not all experiences of victims of abuse are like yours. It is not uncommon, even in these days, for abuse to not be taken seriously by authorities or outside people, especially if the abuse is not physical and therefore easier to ignore. There still aren't enough resources and help for many who need it. Abusers also often isolate their victims- take them away from family and friends, which makes it that much harder for the victim to reach out for help.

    I agree with you that the best thing for a victim of abuse to do is to leave the situation, if at all possible. But the execution of this can be extremely difficult, if not impossible, in some situations.
     
  10. Ducky

    Ducky Master of the Moos Moderator

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    Okay, this is more like rant.

    My auntie is married to a total narcissistic man. they've been married for 20 years, they have 5 kids (oldest being 16) and he's just... so f-ing annoying. I don't think he hits 'em, buit he controls kids with scare (like we once were there, the oldest tried to contol the youngest [he's bit wild child] and nothing else worked so he said "dad comes" and the youngest stopped right away)

    He constanty bashes my auntie, about looks, what she does what she wears. Calls her fat and ugly. She takes care of the house and the kids, always have. She's a wonderful mother. She loves her children so much. And husband says she wastes their money, she has taken loan so she can buy food and he throws it all to her face. And it doesn't help that her mother-in-law is also going with his son "where she wastes that money" and so on and so on.

    Finally last spring she had enough (once again) and he had threated to kill her and somethng so she already found the apartment for her and kids but then kids had 1 month school left and like always, she gave up and they stayed. And her mother-in-law dared to call my mom (my auntie is my mom's sister) and bashed my auntie and saying how she "wastes all the money" and mom just ignored her and said she wanted to ask, what about the motorcycle he bought? Waste of money when they don't have money to pay the bills?
    He sent facebookmessages to their friends, writing crap about her. Made me soo mad.

    My auntie was 19 when she got married, she's depending on him no matter what crap he pulls. Finally, she's gone back to school and has a job and gets some money on her own so he canno blame her "wasting his money". I guess she tells she stays because of kids but what kind of place that is for kids? What about then, when the kids are gone? 20 years have gone by again.

    My auntie turned 40 recently, we had bought her a present and said we'll come. Husband denied the party but we just texted her, we are coming anyways. His reason was because he didn't get a party when he turned 40 last autumn. He didn't get it because she had everything arranged but he didn't want it.
    He turns everything to be her fault.

    And there's nothing I can do.
     
  11. Shytownmofo

    Shytownmofo Lab Technician

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    I have to say I agree more with *lisasimpson* et al.

    Domestic Abuse is so much more than physical abuse; and oftentimes it starts so innocuously.

    It may simply be something like one of a couple being overly posessive and controlling, not allowing the other to do something, or getting upset when they see the other with another person of the oppisite sex.

    That can escalate to comments like you're silly, you're stupid, you're X. Pretty soon it can grow to all out violence and self-esteem destruction.

    Domestic Abuse is about control. It can be control through violence, or through other subtle psychological means. It's almost never a question of "Oh, he's an abuse, I need to leave him." That's especially true because when people first meet, they're on they're best behavior. They send their "representative" of who they want you to think they are, and oftentimes, especially when you love someone, you don't see the flaws until much later on.

    Before you know it, the situation is one where one partner controls either by force and physical means, or simply by passive aggressive means such as withholding or destroying self esteem with comments. You add someone into the mix who's co-dependent, has self esteem issues or a history of growing up with Domestic Abuse, and then, it's a wrap.

    That's what people mean when they talk about the "Cycle of Abuse." People get caught up in it, and then they go from abusive partner or victim for the rest of their lives.

    And I'm not just talking about men, either. There are women out there who are passive aggressivley controlling or just outright physically and mentally abusive. I wouldn't say that it's 50/50 but there aren't just men who abuse, and abuse is not just battery.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2010
  12. talkingtocactus

    talkingtocactus Coroner

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    exactly. i think public opinion tends to be that sex and violence are the primary motivations in dv and rape, when in fact both are far more subtle and almost always psychologically motivated. just as rape is rarely (very very rarely) just about sex, dv is rarely just about violent urges, it's much much deeper than that.

    very true, and by that point, emotionally speaking, it's often too late to have a clear view on the situation, and therefore often too late to be able to act accordingly.

    yep, i agree totally with all of that.
     

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