The Great Ship Debate - CSI:Crime Scene Investigation

OMG, please not Greg and Hodges :lol: that's bound to end bad :lol:
now thinking about it, I'd love to see a storyline with Greg 'stealing' Wendy from Hodges :evil: that would definitely bring Greg and Hodges love/hate relationship to a completely new level! :lol:

 

I really hope not. I love Greg, but I would lose a lot of respect for his character if that happened. I can pretty much see him with any character, male or female, except Hodges. He and Hodges can't stand each other, so those two getting together seems about as reasonable as Grissom/Ecklie. Actually, I'd take Grissom/Ecklie over Greg/Hodges any day. Ecklie isn't half as obnoxious and annoying, IMO, as Hodges is. Greggo needs some lovin', not some snarking. After a stressful day as a CSI, I think an obnoxious and emotionally needy Hodges is the last thing he'd want to come home to. And I still think Wendy doesn't deserve that either.

 

Of course that theory only holds up because you won't consider any of those interactions as anything, but brotherly. The problem I have with that is; they're not brothers. There is no ethical or genetic boundary between them keeping them from crossing a line between fraternal and romantic interest.

And to say the lines never cross at that intersection between gay, or bisexual men is to suggest that gay and bisexual men don't share any brotherly camaraderie with one another and generally see other men the way heterosexual men see women. Which just isn't the case. They're still men, and they're all aware of that, regardless of orientation. Fraternal relationships between gay men frequently do evolve into romantic ones.

I can see why that's a hard pill to swallow, especially for self proclaimed straight men with close male friends, but also for anyone who holds too tightly to hetero-centric values. A good way to put it is: "Problematizing routinized behavior" which is saying that slash and homosexual subtext is a problem for many because it makes us consider the homosexual implications of behaviors and attitudes that we had not previously considered, which may reflect on our own social behaviors. And God knows how many straight men don't want that.

In Nick's case I think it's very easy to see him as a self repressed gay man, or at least bisexual man. Sure, he's dated women and flirts with girls, but a lot of gay men have and do. In my work place alone there's a gay man with a monogamous partner who's fathered a child from a previous marriage, let's call him "Brad" and another gay man who just knows how bloody pretty he is and how much girls love to feel flattered when he openly flirts with them. He concedes it makes him feel pretty good too, despite the fact he has little interest beyond flirting, either way that debunks the notion that gay men only flirt with other men. Not to be marginalizing or anything but they really are just a generally flirty bunch. Maybe Nick is a straight man who knows how pretty he is and flirting with boys is just as much fun as flirting with girls. Maybe he's a gay man who feels conversely. Maybe he's bisexual and likes all the attention. We're never going to get an explicit answer and defining his sexuality based on his relationship track record is no more sound than pulling answers out of our hats. By that logic my co-worker Brad, is more a straight than gay man. I think his partner of 10 years would take issue with that.

In not making these things particularly clear the writers manage a very hushed balancing act: How to reach a wider audience without offending the conservative policies of their particular network. This may seem like a leap of a comparison at first, but hear me out. Have you ever read Anne of Green Gables? It's the kind of lit our mothers/grandmothers might recommend. It's also been studied closely for having a very prominent lesbian subtext. Now my grandmother isn't about to concede that, but I see it. My mother sees it. So while Grandma might be offended by the suggestion that these characters she so identified with in her youth could have just as easily been repressed homosexuals, she certainly can't begin to deny the existence of said homosexual themes. The interesting thing about subtext is that it cannot be solely defined by the author. Sure a lot of writers can claim they did or did not mean any such implications in their writing but the audience are really the ones who define subtext and while you don't subscribe to the subtexts I do, don't negate their very existence.

Getting back to Nick, specifically, he's set up as the kind of character who's made to repress things, so it's hardly a leap that he's repressing his sexuality as well. He represses his feelings a lot, despite how they do get the better of him, and he oft winds up in tears. He repressed his traumatic experiences with an untrustworthy babysitter until it blew up in his professional life. In fact the only thing that he doesn't go out of his way to repress is his anger and generally testosterone driven reactions. You can say that's either typical of a heterosexual man, or you can say thats typical of a man who's practiced heterosexual behavior. Both are sound theories. American police departments don't have a tendency to be too fond of openly gay officers. Texas is not the most liberal state when it comes to sexuality. Football is not a sport that is synonymous with positive attitudes towards sexual exploration. It's a series of situations that make it extra easy for a lot of people to see how if Nick were gay, he wouldn't be too quick to be sharing that news with the world. It's got less to do with bravery and more to do with self-preservation. Sure, the ideal is that you can be yourself and be in any profession you want. Unfortunately the world doesn't work that way just yet. Maybe in time. In the mean time a lot of gay people decide they're better off keeping their sexual preferences very quiet in order to succeed in other social spheres.

Greg on the other hand embodies a lot of things Nick doesn't. He's a little more flamboyant and not the jock type. He's a bookworm and a pop culture junkie and wears his sexual vices on his sleeve. It's Greg's openness with thoughts and feelings that some might consider to be embarrassing or taboo (IE. kinks, fetishes, sexual histories) that I see a more repressed individual like Nick having a curious admiration for, even if he habitually keeps that under wraps too, by calling Greg "weird".

All of that combined makes for a rather common romantic set up. The kind of "odd couple" scenario that ultimately drives two people together for their own happily ever after. It's more commonly seen in hetero fairly tales, but then again hetero fairy tales are just more common altogether.

I don't think anyone is trying to sway anyone else's point of view in here since we're all pretty set in our ways, but issues are going to spring up if people keep losing sight of the fact that however adamant you are in your point of view about subtext, that doesn't make it a fact. Much more importantly though I'd personally like to ask that, out of respect, if you're going to debate the validity of fictional homosexuality you take caution in what you say about GLBT people in general. Thanks.

 

I say the same thing about hetrosexual people too thanks! Show us respect and don't be so quick to label someone a 'homophobe' because they don't see Nick and Greg as a couple. That's the problem with some more 'rabid' fans. They get on a soap box and start preaching and I just tune out. Not liking particular slash couple does not equal homophobia and it's sad that some people can't separate it and then turn it into a political debate and accuse those that don't of infringing on the rights of a particular group. Are those out there who dislike hetro ships infringing on hetrosexual rights. No? Does it have to get nasty? No, but some people will do anything or latch onto any little word against their ship in order to start a fight because they personalize comments about whether there is sparks between a FICTIONAL COUPLE. Seriously, this is about whether there is sparks between Nick and Greg. I say there isn't. Others say there is. Okay fine. That's their right and it's my right to say there isn't any. I see sparks between Mandy and Nick, others don't. Fine! End of story. Thank you.

So my closest friend and I can't be sisters because we don't share the same genetics? We certainly are close enough to be considered sisters. We support one another and care about one another enough.

Sure they love each other, but that sign could have meant. "I love you man, you saved my day."

And really love is fluid. Grissom said he loved Warrick, but does that mean they had a sexual relation. We know they didn't because Grissom was in a relationship with Sara.

There's different ways to love people. And in the law enforcement field there is a brotherly and sisterly love that forms through being united together. Brothers (and sisters) in Arm?

And David Rambo could have been saying that about anything. The only canon ship so far is GSR and Wedges.

Hey I'd love to see that! That would make my day!

 

^ I never used the term homophobe. And I also never said you couldn't consider yourself a sister of anyone you like. In fact I don't think I made any point in that whole long arsed diatribe that I didn't suggested had a opposite and equal counter point.

Saying that really makes me think you responded without actually bothering to read or digest what I've said because everything I wrote specifically about Nick or Greg was illuminating my point about their relationship -- and how you can choose to experience it.

 

Uhm...-blinks-

I like Mandy/Nick and Riley/Greg...

hah, sorry. It just seems as though it is getting tense in here.

Yeah, I see Greg and Nick as brothers. I mean it's not hard to believe if one was in trouble, the other would be right there to help him.
I don't have any problem with slash...trust me, I've read my fair share and I do enjoy some of them, but Nick and Greg just isn't one of those slash couples that click for me.
I won't sit here and say stuff like 'OH TO HELL WITH THEM. THAT COUPLE SUCKS!' because, not only is against the board rules to bash and be clearly rude to others, but I don't bash other people's opinions.
I know that some people feel the same about two of my favorite couples.
People may say they see no flirting or subtext between Nick and Mandy, as I and many others do.
Some people can't see Greg and Riley (Hair Pullers) together, only see them as siblings or friends.
I think bottom line, it's all how WE see things. It's all how our brains and minds process the actions and words and all of that of the character/s mentioned do and say.
Did that make any sense or was it just rambling? I hope it made sense.

 

^Made perfect sense to me.

Hair pullers! Is that what they are calling Greg and Riley shippers..hehehe..I love it. I think it's funny as heck.

There's been some talk in the Nick and Mandy thread of renaming it 'Manic'! I kind of like 'Nandy' or 'N&M's'.

No you didn't, but my response was based on previous experiences I've had when I've expressed my views on N&G. I just wanted to be clear to you I wasn't going down that road again and allow myself to be unfairly labelled! And for those who are quick to use the term "homophobe" how does it make you any better than a homophobe?

Besides if Nick or Greg were gay, what makes you think they'd go for each other? Id' say Nick would be more inclined to go after Grissom? Greg and Archie would be cool?

 

I'm in the exact same boat with you myfuturecsi. I am in no way against a ship because of the sexual orientation of said couple. I'm just against it because I have other ships before that one and because I strictly see the couple as brothers. Just as you see them as lovers, I see them as brothers. There is nothing wrong with that. What is wrong is being told that for whatever reason my opinion about the ship is wrong. Not saying anyone is saying that or anything. I'm just saying that with prevous discussions of "The Love" it has turned into a Pro-Slash vs. Anti-Slash fight, which it really isn't.

BTW, my comment about Greg and Hodges was simply a joke. I can't really see them together, I can just see them together more than Greg and Nick. I was just trying to make light of the conversation!

For the longest time, I saw Wendy and Nick together just because that flirtiness was always there between them. But then they had to pair her up with Hodges. But in a wierd kind of way they fit I suppose. I enjoy Nick and Mandy more anyways!

 

I wish there was a thread where this can discussed without worrying about going off topic because I'd really like to know why when someone doesn't like slash, they are perceived as a homophobic. The issue never comes up when it's a hetrosexual ship, but when one mentions not liking slash all hell breaks loose.

Is there a thread where this can be discussed? One where somone can express their thoughts and not fear being flamed?

 

Think the same... some people simply can't see it the way we see it... they simply misinterpret our statements and try to peg us as homophobes... that's sad and really disrespectful... I mean we don't think about slash-lovers as homosexuals, do we??? So why you need to be a homophobe even it isn't like that??? I've got a friend who's gay, so I should maybe hate him because people say I'm a homophobe just because I can't see Nick and Greg as a couple.

This is a respect thing... everybody has an opinion and we should accept that. Nobody has the right to depreciate someone just because of an opinion...

Your Nick and Mandy comment is music in my ears They have chemistry between them.

Well I guess this is something we will never get... There will always people who simply can't respect other peoples opinions... and so you'll always be flamed for it somehow... maybe it's the best to talk about it not on an official basis like a thread... even this is exactly what we want. But you'll never be save from people who simply talk down what you feel... sad but true.



But I need to say that in that thread we kept our respect of other people's opinions and that's a good thing But somehow it'll always get out of hand...

 

The discussion is way off in this thread and the bickering above and beyond the topic at hand is getting out of control so, until I can bring this up in the mod thread, I'm locking this thread until I have an answer. Also, I don't think it will be appropriate to make a thread in the shipper forum that is just for this:

It has nothing to do with ships and that is the purpose of Shipper Central, to discuss ships.

So until further notice, this thread will be closed.

thanks

 

Ok, after some thought I have finally decided the direction to take this thread. I have updated the rules for this thread and you will find them below. I expect EVERYBODY to read ALL the rules and understand them before they post. When you do post for the first time after this post, please leave a comment in your post saying you have read and understood them. Thanks.

First things first. Here are a few of the Shipper Central Rules (the complete list can be found here,) that specifically apply to this thread (all threads but I want to make them part of the rules for this thread).

~ Shipper Central is designed to be a FUN place for people to discuss their favorite FICTIONAL pairings. Shipping is NOT life or death - it's fun AND it's fiction. So, let's please not take things so seriously. If someone doesn't like your chosen pairing, SO WHAT? You do and that's all that should matter.

~ We expect EVERYONE to have RESPECT for the other posters in this forum and their ships. Treat other ships the way you want everyone to treat your ships.

~ To quote TBonz - "Insulting couples (characters) and/or real life actors: DON'T. If you don't like a ship and feel compelled to say why, do it dispassionately and with respect for those who might."

~ It is NEVER appropriate to flame or bash another poster or group of posters. Negative comments and snide remarks towards others will not be tolerated in this forum.

~ If someone flames you, DO NOT respond. Notify a moderator and walk away.

~ DO NOT bring arguments/problems from outside this board into the forum. No exceptions.

Now for the new rules for this thread:

~ This is a debate thread. Debate until your heart's content.

~ There will be NO discussion about couple A being right and couple B being wrong. Stick to what you like and don't like about certain ships. Everybody has a right to ship who they want.

~ There will be NO discussion that couple A or character A cannot be gay since again, everybody has a right to ship who they want. You can say you don't see them as gay and debate why that is, but you cannot flat out say they are not gay.

~ When discussing slash pairings, it IS possible the discussion could center around one or both characters as to why you do or do not think they are gay. This IS allowed. It's practically impossible for the discussion not to turn that way when discussing a slash pairing but please, stick to the topic on hand.

~ This thread is to discuss which ships you do and do not like and why and also to debate with others why you/they do or do not like them and it doesn't matter if they are canon or not. ANY combination of ships is fine as long it stays within the three CSI shows.

Also, the three line rule does not apply to debate threads but it must stay on topic. It is limited to the actual ship threads themselves.

Have fun and play nice!

If anybody feels I have left something out, please let me know. Thanks.

 

I have read, understand, and appreciate the rules!

I believe that Greg and Nick are solely brothers, not because I don't think they are gay, but because all the interaction I have seen is strictly of brotherly love.

 

Read and understood too. And what shoukd I say Kimbo??? My words just in a better English :lol: Really, they both liked to make fun of another, it was always great to watch... Sad that we don't get to see scenes like that in the last time....

 

Read and understood

It feels like we've already discussed Nick/Greg quite a bit. How about we move on to other ships. If I recall correctly, Grillows won the big ship poll a while back (the one that was in a larger poll on various other parts of the show). Personally, I'm a Yo!Bling fan, but I can definitely still appreciate Grillows. They have fabulous chemistry and Catherine really brings out the fun side of Grissom (the side we probably wouldn't know existed otherwise...). I absolutely love Catherine and would love to see her find a happy relationship. What do you guys think?